Also in this episode:

Tiyana explores her journey within NENA over the past three years, including her coordination roles on the board of directors, strategic direction group, coordination hub, and storytelling hub. She also shares her work and advocacy beyond NENA, as founder of the of Humanitarian Changemakers Network and host of the Changemaker QandA podcast.

Tiyana discusses her recent PHD work, in which she redefined concepts such as ‘empowerment’, ‘resilience’ ‘adaptability’ and ‘sustainability’. She describes how her work with women and communities in rural India informed her research. We discuss how the broader post-growth movement can benefit from a deeper understanding on the dynamics of empowerment and resilience.

Finally, Tiyana shares with us her personal vision for a day in the life in a new economy, post-growth world.

Did you know - PGAP host Michael Bayliss was also a recent guest on the ‘Voices of the New Economy’ podcast. You can even watch the conversation on YouTube.

In this episode, I invite listeners to hold one face to face conversation with at least one other person who is new to degrowth. Please CONTACT US on PGAP if you would like any tips before your conversation. Otherwise, let us know how your conversation went. It is very important that we all do what we can to make post-growth a mainstream issue, as the world is on brink of disaster. If you can, we would appreciate you taking the time to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks, or rate and review us on Apple Podcast.

*Links for further exploration: *

• Tiyana’s non-linear approach to change/growth is discussed in the context of rethinking sustainability at the Australian Earth Laws Alliance conference last year: https://youtu.be/9XvAJyn0Gc0?si=KNiVxCwgLdRLwY8T

• Tiyana’s empowerment framework (which can be applied to how we think about the role of an economy): https://youtu.be/4z1e6EM2GOk?si=qXI4TXPOP0uqk9Mb

You may be interested in the past NENA themed PGAP episodes:

• Reimagine a Earth Centered Economy with Michelle Maloney
• PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism

PGAP is made possible through the support of Sustainable Population Australia. All perspectives, views and legacies of PGAP guests are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Timestamp:
Intro: Start – 05:10
Interview part 1: 05:10 – 32:47
Intermission: 32:47 – 35:05
Interview part 1: 35:05 – 56:46

Special Guest: Tiyana Jovanovic.

Scott Witheridge is an Environmental Engineer and Author of the book "The Post Fossil Fuel Era". The book is a deep investigation into the next frontier of energy—exploring decentralised power, hydrogen innovation, and the intersection of conventional and emerging technologies. In this interview, Scott discusses the possibilities of abundant, perpetual and non-conventional energy.

All views, opinions and legacies of guests on Post Growth Australia Podcast are exclusively theirs and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of PGAP. This is especially true for this episode as host Michael Bayliss remains cautiously neutral on this issue. From a post-growth perspective, the idea of abundant energy offers a fascinating hypothetical. If abundant energy is possible, how does this challenge our notion of energy scarcity and our response to this (such as planned degrowth and voluntary simplicity)? On the other side of the coin, does abundant energy give humanity a free pass to continue expanding unchecked and do post-growth principles still apply? All this and more are explored under the hypothetical microscope in this special episode of PGAP.

“THE POST FOSSIL-FUEL ERA: A Blueprint for a Boundless Future” is available for purchase on Amazon HERE.

You can check out Scott’s videos, including the full length “The Story of the Joe Cell” documentary, on the Post Fossil Fuel Era YouTube channel HERE.

If you would like to hear host Michael Bayliss’ most recent interview on Pulse, representing Sustainable Population Australia, link HERE (go to the third chapter starting at 2:00:00).

If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your networks. We encourage you to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. CONTACT US with your thoughts and suggestions for future episodes and guests.

Special Guest: Scott Witheridge.

In this episode of Post Growth Australia Podcast, we welcome special guest Matt Orsagh, from the Arketa Institute for Post Growth Finance, and author of the blog ‘Degrowth is The Answer’. Matt and his colleagues at Arketa have been working to align to financial sector with environmental and wellbeing needs, culminating in the 2025 research paper: “By Disaster or Design: How finance can evolve to avoid the worst of the ecological challenges we face and enable the transition to a better economic mode.” The paper proposes many degrowth solutions to the finance sector, to which Matt explores further in this interview.

We also explore Matt’s own written work at his Substack blog, 'Degrowth is the Answer'. Big themes include wealth inequality, the loneliness epidemic, and collapse. These articles exemplify Matt’s storytelling skills. While describing our current predicaments with unflinching realism, Matt reminds us that the future remains hopeful if our global society transitions toward practical, planned Degrowth solutions.

This episode of PGAP is dedicated to the memory of Tristan Sykes, co-founder of Just Collapse, who recently passed away

Change the World through Changing Economics with Marcus Champ: The premiere episode of season 8 is a great companion episode, as it similarly explores economics and finance.

Planning for a Just Collapse with Kate Booth: Our interview with ‘Just Collapse’ co-founder remains one of our most listened to episodes.

We also encourage you to read the PGAP blog article To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.

This interview explores the following three articles from Matt’s Substack Blog ‘Degrowth Is The Answer’:

Americans Don’t Know How Good They Don’t Have It
Collapse: Don’t Look Down
Everyone I Know is Lonely

You can find the Arketa institute publications HERE, where you may read the report ‘By Disaster or By Design.’

_Enjoyed this episode? Please feel welcome to show your support for PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your friends, family and networks. Leave a review for us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. Contact us anytime with your thoughts and suggestions. _

Time stamp

Introduction:

Start – 00:04:19

Interview Part 1:

00:04:19 – 00:32:06

Intermission:

00:32:06 – 00:34:27

Interview Part 1:

00:34:27 - End

Special Guest: Matt Orsagh.

Welcome to 2026 and a brand-new season of Post Growth Australia Podcast!

With co-host Mark Allen on travel leave, host Michael Bayliss (with his degrowth cap on) opens the episode with some mixed feelings in welcoming the new year. Since 2025, humanity has breached planetary boundaries, shifted more of our collective wealth into the hands of oligarchs and added 70 million to the population. Each new year brings a new appreciation of the magnitude to the scale of the human enterprise, which makes turning things around that more difficult (we keep trying, however!)

Our first special guest to open Season 8 of PGAP is Marcus Champ. With a professional background in psychology, Marcus is studying at the one-of-a-kind Masters of Economics of Sustainability degree through Torrens University. Along with fellow students, Marcus has started an economics advocacy group called “Public Money. Public Good.”

Marcus was also a presenter at the 2025 New Economy Network Australia (NENA) conference. His presentation was titled: “Pathways through a crisis: wartime experience and lessons for the coming climate catastrophe.”

In this episode, Marcus draws from his presentation to compare Australia’s economy during World War II to that of our economic system today. In his words: “It’s amazing how much our understanding of economics and finance has changed in the last 50 years or so.”

With panache and passion, Marcus shares a new economic vision for Australia. Informed from the achievements of the past, it eschews the current neoliberal paradigm to create a future where social and environmental wellbeing is prioritised over GDP, profits for the few and endless growth on a finite planet.

Post Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP) is made possible with the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). All opinions and legacy of PGAP guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Enjoyed this episode? Please feel welcome to show your support for PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your friends, family and networks. Leave a review for us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. Contact us anytime with your thoughts and suggestions. Want to explore more episodes on this theme? Links below:

Finding The Money with Maren Poitras
PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism
MMT for Activism with Gabrielle Bond
Ecological Economies and MMT with Steve Williams

Time stamp:

Intro - 00:06:20
Interview part 1 - 00:06:20 - 00:27:20
Intermission - 00:27:20 - 00:29:05
Interview part 2 - 00:29:05 - 01:00:55

Special Guest: Marcus Champ.

In June 2025, Michael and Mark participated in a community consultation weekend on the future development of North Albany. Michael later presented his observations at the Albany Community Environment Centre forum ahead of the City of Albany elections in September. His presentation explained to prospective councillors and fellow environmentalists why urban planning matters for both social wellbeing and ecological resilience. It also invited attendees to reflect upon the long‑term consequences of unchecked growth for the city’s future.

For this episode, Michael reads out this talk for posterity, which can also be read on the PGAP blog HERE. This prompts an open discussion with Mark around issues such as:

• Albany’s growth pains and the impact this has for future planning, housing security and the natural environment;

• How face to face community consultation, including Citizen Assemblies, can encourage cooperative debate and discussion, in contrast to the divisiveness which is so common in online or social media debates;

• How holistic approaches to debate can ensure that everyone can find common ground and navigate difference of opinion across many critical issues, including overpopulation;

• The importance of including post-growth thinking into our conversations, to encourage people to think about the bigger picture and act proactively as well as reactively;

• Finding the time to be in a space outside of language and narrative. An article, written by Michael in 2023, argues why the pursuit of growth makes this all the more difficult. Link HERE;

• Election fatigue in which it seems to be a case of the trees voting for the axe at federal, state and local levels, and:

• Finally, on a darkly humours note, we imagine what kind of apocalypse we face when world coffee stocks run out.

As we draw a close to season seven, we reflect on a very good year for PGAP. This has been our longest season to date, beginning as far back as November 2024, when we broadcasted the radio documentary ‘Rethinking Sustainability’. Since then, Season Seven has covered many topics across fifteen episodes, such as steady state economics, techno dystopia, regenerative agriculture and a panel discussion on Degrowth at the University of New South Wales. This year, PGAP was recognised by the site MillionPodcasts as being in the top ten global podcasts that covers overpopulation and in the top fifty podcasts on Sustainable Living. This is very encouraging news to hear as we take a break over the festive season and plan for season eight.

While we are on our break, we encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We are grateful to anyone who takes the time to review and rate us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast platform. We are also appreciative when people take the time to contact us directly with feedback and suggestions for future episode topics or guests. Many of our interviews this season came about from community suggestions or from prospective guests who emailed us. Reaching out is so important, not just for building connection but for helping us to broaden our range of episode topics and guests.

Last, but certainly not least, we extend our gratitude to Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), which has supported PGAP since its inception in July 2020. This season, we also bid farewell to John Coulter, a long-time leader of SPA and the wider post-growth movement in Australia who sadly passed away last year. We welcomed SPA’s new patron, Anne Poelina, and spoke with Isaac Kabongo, the Ugandan CEO of the Ecological Christian Organisation, who has represented SPA at COP events. You can learn more about SPA here.

The Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program is one working example of how a ‘circular economy model’ would work. Darren however cautions that circular economy models are limited in light of the loss in energy and resources that are implicit with recycling. We at PGAP argue that this is all the more reason why a circular based economy must go hand in hand with a post-growth economic system. Finally, Darren shares his personal vision for a possible post-growth future and what it might look like.

Co-host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen for the introduction and outro for this episode, where they reflect on this great initiative from Smart Energy Council. They also discuss the imperative for a planned degrowth transition in a world that is drowning under ever growing piles of aggregate consumer waste. Mark and Michael also discuss some recent developments and current affairs as ‘post-growth’ and ‘collapse’ enters mainstream discourse.

Did you enjoy this episode? Feel free to show your appreciation by rating and review PGAP on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform. Or write to us through our contact form with your feedback and any ideas you might have for future episodes. We also appreciate guest recommendations! Please feel free to share this and other episodes of PGAP within your networks. We rely exclusively on word of mouth.

PGAP is made possible with the support of Sustainable Population Australia. Please check out SPA on their website and consider signing their position statement or even signing-up as a supporter or member.

Want to explorer deeper into the themes raises by this episode? Here are some links:

The following webinars explore the Smart Energy Council ‘Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program’ in detail:

• Solar Recycling & Material End Markets – Stewardship Webinar I Smart Energy Council
  
  slides here

• Webinar Renewable Sector Stewardship Enablers
  slides here

• Solar Panel Reuse I Stewardship Webinar Series - Smart Energy Council
  slides here

The episode refers to two past episodes of PGAP. These include: “Save our Soils: Regenerative Farming with Louis De Jaeger” and; “Working Toward a Circular Economy Future in Australia with Phil Jones”.

One of our previous guests, Kate Booth from Just Collapse, was a panellist in the ABC debate: “We’re F'ed! It’s too late to avoid civilisational collapse." Kate Booth was special guest on the PGAP episode “Planning for a Just Collapse”.

You can find more about the work of PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE.

The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Darren Johannesen .

Louis De Jaeger, author of “SOS: Save Our Soils”, asked this question as he travelled the world to explore the whole gamut of regenerative farms and land management practices. Louis’ holistic, non-judgemental and open-minded approach is very refreshing. As far as we’re aware, he is the only person who has managed to endorse veganic farming while also enjoying an enthusiastic introduction to his book by Allan Savory, figurehead of the holistic grazing movement. Louis concludes that all regenerative farming methods have their place, depending on context, so long as the soil is kept healthy with its precious microbiome intact.

Louis de Jaeger is a Belgian based eco-entrepreneur, landscape consultant, speaker and author. You can find out more at his WEBSITE. “SOS: Save Our Soils”, launched in June 2025, is an impressive blend of research told through a conversational, easy-to-read style which makes it an essential addition to the growing wealth of regenerative literature. To purchase your own copy of SOS, visit HERE.

Industrial agriculture is a top global driver of environmental change. A post-growth future requires us to completely reimagine how we approach agriculture, not only with regard to methodology, but also to the size and scale of our food growing enterprises. Following the interview with Louis, co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss engage in a ‘panel discussion’ where Louis’ book and interview are discussed (along with the broader regenerative movement) from a post-growth perspective. We encourage you to stick around to the end of the interview.

Many thanks to West Australian permaculture band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ for the inclusion of their song ‘Earthworm Bill.’ You can find out more about Formidable Vegetable at their Bandcamp page HERE. Michael recently made a short video on a Johnson Su method composting workshop which also includes this song. It may be watched HERE.

We highly recommend watching the debate between George Monbiot (precision fermentation advocate) and Allan Savory HERE. If you would like to listen to more episodes on the theme of regenerative agriculture, you may enjoy PGAP’s interview with Charles Massy HERE. We also recommend several episodes on permaculture, including special guests David Holmgren HERE or Shane Simonsen on Zero Input Agriculture HERE.

In other news, we are pleased to share an online trophy awarded to us by Million Podcasts, an aggregate podcast site. PGAP sits in the top 50 of global ‘Sustainable Living’ podcasts, which is very encouraging. This is made possible by the PGAP community and word of mouth. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Alternatively, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform.

You can find out more about co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE

Time stamp -

Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss

00:00:00 to 00:05:28

Interview P1 with Louis De Jaeger
00:05:43 to 00:35:21

Intermission + 'Earthworn Bill' from 'Formidable Vegetable'
00:35:38 to 00:38:20

Interview P2 with Louis De Jaeger
00:38:20 to 00:53:42

Panel Discussion and Outro with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss
00:53:57 to 01:07:30

Special Guest: Louis De Jaeger.

Matthew and Michael discuss a spectrum of topics in under an hour, and we felt that some of the issues discussed only brushed the surface. If you would like a 'deeper dive' into the issues discussed, Matthew has kindly contributed to a guest blog on the PGAP website, where he provides substantial written responses to each of the question topics of the interview. You can read Matthew's guest blog HERE.

Liked this episode? Check out our previous episode with Phil Jones, Treasurer/Secretary of CASSE NSW Inc., discussing the progress toward the Circular Economy in Australia.

Sign the CASSE NSW Inc. petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy.

You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions.

PGAP is supported by Sustainable Population Australia. You can sign their position statement, calling for an end to population growth policies in Australia.

All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Matthew Washington.

Across the next two episodes of PGAP, we will be showcasing the good work from CASSE NSW Inc., who are advocating for the steady state economy in Australia.

For this episode, we interview Phil Jones, Treasurer and Secretary, as he shares with us the progress of government reports and inquiries into the Circular Economy. Furthermore, why it is crucial that we encourage the government to take serious action in implementing the circular economy, rather than letting their reports gather dust in Canberra.

We discuss two reports in particular:

• The Circular Economy Ministerial Advisory Group, established in 2023, and:
• The Productivity Commission “Opportunities in the Circular Economy” interim report

The circular economy is defined by Wikipepdia as: “a model of resource production and consumption in any economy that involves sharing, leasing, reusing, repairing, refurbishing, and recycling existing materials and products for as long as possible.”

Phil is positive with the potential for the rollout of the circular economy in Australia, especially in its capacity to catalyse existing initiatives such as recycling programs, repair cafes, second hand exchange initiatives, etc. However, he cautions that the circular economy is alone insufficient in achieving true sustainability unless it is coupled with the Steady State Economy. That is, "an economy made up of a constant stock of physical wealth (capital) and a constant population size, which does grow over the course of time".

The episode concludes with a call to action to get some real and action in response to these reports. A good place to start is by signing the CASSE NSW INC petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy.

Did you like this episode and want to explore further?

You may be interested in PGAP’s first ever episode with Steady State ACT, or with CASSE’s international director Brian Czech. We also discussed the New Economy Network Australia on the episode, so you may be interested in PGAP’s coverage of the 2023 NENA conference (sadly, I didn’t get around to recording Phil’s excellent talk).

You can find out more about Phil and CASSE NSW in the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter November 2024. Speaking of SPA, who proudly support PGAP, please consider signing their position statement, calling for an end to population growth in Australia.

You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions.

All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Phil Jones.

Three years later, Val has a new book out – “HOW MANY IS ENOUGH?” -just in time for World Population Day 25. She is also in the process of finalising a new documentary “TICK TOCK BOOM BANG” due later this month, which she has produced along with Nick Bohle of HatChap productions.

In this mini episode, Val shares her recent very busy journey in creating content across multiple media and her reflections on a world that has changed immensely in the three years since Val was last guest on PGAP.

Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010.

A trailer for ‘Tik Tok Boom Bang’ may be watched at the HatChap productions website HERE

Valorie Allen’s latest book ‘How Many Is Enough?’ is available from Amazon for Kindle HERE.

You can keep up to date with Val’s latest projects from her website Population In Sync.

Sustainable Population Australia, who support PGAP, have launched a media release in anticipation for World Population Day, which may be read in full from the SPA website. It includes quotes from SPA patrons Prof. Anne Poelina and Dr. Paul Collins, both previous guests on PGAP.

During this episode, Val refers to the chilling article from the Independent, “There could be billions more people on Earth than previously thought” which could be a consequence as a result of under counting rural populations.

PGAP will never run ads and our success depends on word of mouth from our dedicated community. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Or rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. We welcome you to subscribe or to contact us with your feedback, opinions and topic recommendations for future episodes.

Special Guest: Valorie Allen.

Yet, Harvey is not fatalistic. He envisions a radically different future that is grounded in degrowth, steady-state economics, and a shared commitment to equity and ecological sustainability. The Age of Humachines explores how today’s tech revolution increasingly shapes every aspect of our lives, introducing critical concepts like the Technocene (the possible successor to the Anthropocene), Smartheid societies, and CIMENT, a term Harvey uses to describe the dominant values of Competitive Individualism and Materialist Entitlement.

In contrast, he proposes a new framework: SEWP (Sustainable, Equitable Wellbeing Planetwide), offering offering a hopeful lens through which we might transition toward an Ecocene future.

_
Cover of 'The Age of Humachines'. You can purchase your copy, or find our more, HERE.
_
This conversation also provided PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss the opportunity to reflect on their personal relationships with technology over the past three decades, from the optimism of the 1990s to the increasing unease of today’s digital world.

Michael D.B. Harvey holds qualifications in English Literature, Sociology, Psychology, Psychotherapy, and Organizational Psychology. He is also the author of Interactional Leadership: The Art of the Choice-Focused Leader and Utopia in the Anthropocene: A Change Plan for a Sustainable and Equitable World.

Harvey’s connections include the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE), who helped make this interview possible.

If this episode resonated with you, we highly recommend picking up a copy of The Age of Humachines [HERE], and checking out Harvey’s engaging talks and interviews on YouTube, e.g. [HERE].

Michael is also a musician, performing solo and withhis band Bridges of Sound. This episode features a sample of his song “Standing Up for Being Human.”

We’d love to hear your thoughts on the future of technology. Reach out to PGAP through our contact form, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with your networks.

You can find out more about PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen [HERE] and Michael Bayliss [HERE].

Episode Timestamp:

00:00 - Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss
11:40 - Part 1 interview with Michael D.B. Harvey
40:56 - Interlude with Michael Bayliss and excerpt from “Standing Up for Being Human.”
43:06 - Part 2 interview with Michael D.B. Harvey

Please note: The views expressed by PGAP guests are their own and may not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast.

Special Guest: Michael DB Harvey.

George Tsakraklides is author of The Unhappiness Machine, In The Grip of Necrocapitalism, Beyond the Petri Dish, Frankenpolitics and other works exploring the deeper drivers of civilisational collapse and humanity’s self-destructive trajectory.

With degrees in molecular biology, chemistry, food science, and Earth sciences, George spent two decades in social research, data analytics, and global brand strategy, working with major multinationals, gaining insight into the inner workings of profit-driven systems.

After leaving the corporate world, George turned his focus to humanity’s broken relationship with nature and the repeating patterns of societal failure. This work has featured on Radio Ecoshock, Collapse Chronicles, Post-Doom Conversations and other platforms addressing environmental and civilisational crises.

In this episode, we dive into the intersection of science, philosophy and ecological activism, as explored in George’s latest book, Beyond the Petri Dish. We examine why rational thinking alone falls short and the importance of reconnecting with the expansive Infinity State, a realm beyond reason, to achieve full embodiment.

The conversation also delves into the psychological and societal forces steering humanity away from ecological wisdom, including the role of social media in fuelling addictive, reactionary behaviours. We critique the environmental movement’s entanglement with growth-based paradigms and explore the need for a more honest, existential reckoning with what it means to be human in an age of collapse.

From the pitfalls of call-out culture in activism to the quiet power of tending a conservation garden, we reflect on the value of small, grounded acts in a world that often feels overwhelming. Finally, we explore the role of grief, acceptance and grounded hope in moving beyond paralysis, offering insight for those struggling with eco-anxiety and despair.

For those who want to explore George’s work further, you can check out his website HERE.

You can also find George on Substack here: (1) The George Tsakraklides View | Substack

George’s latest articles on Substack are all recommended and highly pertinent to this episode. Some examples include:

• A Brief History of the Dopamine Dystopia
• Finding Meaning in An Increasingly Absurd World
• The Meta Terror State: A Do-It-Yourself Guide for Aspiring Dictators

George also has an Instagram page where you can view his garden restoration among other things.

In this episode we also discuss how George’s work connects with Holistic Activism. You can read/download the 2025 edition of the Holistic Activism Booklet HERE.

Please feel welcome to support the work of PGAP through subscribing, through sharing this and other episodes with your networks, or by rating and leaving a review on Apple podcast or your favourite platform. We also welcome your feedback and ideas. Please contact us anytime on our contact form here.

Post Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP) is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). All opinions, past work and legacies of our guests so not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: George Tsakraklides.

In this episode we explore several critical issues including the persistent effects of growth-driven capitalism on the natural environment as well as the urgent need for deep, systemic change to avert impending ecological collapse.

Drawing on decades of experience in environmental and social justice activism, Susie goes on to offer a distinctive and holistic vision for a post-growth future where humanity can thrive in harmony with the natural world.

• For further reading, we recommend Susie’s interview with the Finding Courage publication: “Standing Up (Even When All Seems Lost).”
• PGAP was introduced to Susie through John Seed, who we interviewed in the season 5 finale: “Going deep into Deep Ecology with John Seed.”

Many thanks to all of our listeners for your support. You are welcome to support PGAP further by sharing this episode with your friends, family and networks. You are also welcome to rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. You can send us your feedback, thoughts and suggestions on the PGAP Contact form. You can find out more about your PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss HERE and HERE.

Special Guest: Susie Russell.

(This episode is in memory of Dr John Coulter)

John remained an executive member of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) until the end of his life. Through SPA, he fearlessly challenged mainstream media for neglecting critical issues such as overpopulation and the limits to growth.

In 2021, PGAP had the privilege of interviewing John at his home in the Adelaide Hills. Unfortunately, a bushfire had swept through the property a few months earlier, leaving much of the land scarred. Walking through the devastated bushland was a sobering experience and a stark reminder of the profound changes occurring as society’s growth experiment entered the "decade of consequence."

This interview was originally broadcast in 2021 as part of the episode World Population Day 2021. For this memorial episode, we are re-releasing that conversation, as John’s thoughts, perspectives, and reflections resonate even more powerfully in retrospect. Co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their reflections on the interview and John’s legacy, particularly his pioneering work in the early 1970s for the broader post-growth movement.

(The 1971 Newspaper open letter)

A heartfelt tribute to John Coulter was penned by Dr Bob Brown:

"I was sad to hear of John Coulter’s death, but that sadness was quickly replaced by a celebration of John’s remarkable, life-long advocacy for the environment. In his time as the Democrats’ spokesperson, he was the major Australian political voice for protecting this nation’s wildlife, wild regions, and oceans, as well as promoting greener living for us all. He was a gentleman but unswerving in his devotion to life on Earth. South Australia and the nation are indebted to John for a long, caring, and actively eco-saving career."

One of John’s final articles, "The Guiding Criminal Lie in Economics", was published in Pearls and Irritations in 2024. A moving tribute in the same publication, "Vale Dr. John Coulter", was written by former SPA President Jenny Goldie. In April 2024, John was invited to become a Patron of SPA—a role that he very much cherished during the brief months before his passing.

The Post-Growth Australia Podcast will take a short break over the festive season before returning to Season Seven in January. In the meantime, we warmly encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, and networks.

You can rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and we welcome your feedback, thoughts, and suggestions for future episodes. You can contact us HERE. Remember, podcasts are rapidly becoming a key medium for mass communication and influence in the modern age. It is vital that we work together to ensure the message of Degrowth reaches a wide audience.

To learn more about your PGAP co-hosts and their broader work, visit the respective websites for Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss.

PGAP is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia.

Special Guest: John Coulter.

The aftermath of the US election has left many of us in a state of shock. Voters were faced with a stark choice between more growth-based neoliberalism or alt right extremism, choosing the latter. It was a great day for billionaires either way. As Australia looks to face a very similar choice in mid-2025, it is clear that activists must take stock, recalibrate and work together effectively to advocate for a third alternative that celebrates people and planet. PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss discuss their responses to the election and their recent engagements toward a Degrowth future.

In this episode, Michael shares the speech that he gave on Degrowth at the Torbay Festival, Western Australia in late October – just before the election. A quote from the talk:

“What can we do as Davids against the Goliaths of psychopathic multinational corporations and the politicians who serve time as their apologists for a few years in the promise of a cushy job in the gas industry? This is where I invite you to think about where from here and let’s have the conversation.”

This is a conversation that needs to happen with greater urgency as humanity lurches towards an increasingly dark future.

A transcript of Michael’s talk can be read on the PGAP BLOG.

Mark shares his most recent posting on Holistic Activism following the US election. As Mark explains, “this message isn’t a call for optimism or hope…instead, it’s a call to hold space and to serve both human and non-human futures, with an awareness of our profound interconnectedness.”

The post may be read at the Holistic Activism website HERE. You can be part of the Holistic Activism movement today by joining the HA FACEBOOK GROUP.

PGAP is also proud to be the first to play Mark’s new song ‘Ballad of Yakamia’ performed by his occasional and ongoing musical project ‘Counting Backwards.’ You can download or purchase the song from BANDCAMP.

One take away from the US election is that podcasts have now overtaken mainstream media as public informers. However, did you know that the top 10 performing podcasts tend to lean more towards right wing populism? It is time that podcasts that offer genuine solutions – planned degrowth, steady state economics, wellbeing societies, and stabilising populations start to make a bigger splash in the mainstream media.

We have been very happy with the performance of PGAP’ Season Seven opener, “Rethinking Sustainability” which is looking to break PGAP download records. We invite you to help us to build this momentum. Please SUBSCRIBE and share PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can rate and review us on APPLE PODCAST. CONTACT US with your feedback and recommendations for future episode.

This episode is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. SPA is the only population organisation in the world, that has demonstrated unequivocal support from the broader public, for a sensible and rational population policy. With 17,500 signatures to their position statement, SPA has demonstrated that the issue doesn’t have to be ugly or divisive to win popular support (someone should have told the Republicans). SPA has also released a sobering report on Australia’s water security: “Big thirsty Australia: how population growth threatens our water security and sustainability”.

A couple more links:

This blog piece from CASSE, A Steady Stater’s Response to the Harris-Trump Debate is good for a 'Degrowth' perspective on the Democract/Republic dichotomy.

This video from Resilience.Org, A Dozen Years of Economic Thumb Twiddling, also resonates with us.

From George Monbiot: Trump has pledged to wage war on planet Earth – and it will take a progressive revolution to stop him. "Voters have never been swayed by ‘rational debate’. Only a genuine change in the way we do politics can prevent the march of the right". Indeed.

As our world teeters on the edge of an increasingly perilous environmental future—extending beyond climate change—we must ask: what does true sustainability entail? How far are we from it, what are the root causes of our current trajectory, and what paths could lead us there?

Rod Taylor (author, columnist, radio host) asks these very questions to eleven esteemed Australian scientists and thinkers in a brand-new radio documentary. PGAP is proud to be the first platform to share this thought-provoking documentary, which explores ecological economics, planned Degrowth and Modern Monetary Theory.

Rod Taylor is author of “Ten Journeys on a Fragile Planet”, co-author with Mark Diesendorf of “The Path to a Sustainable Civilisation” and co-editor with Stephen Williams, of the groundbreaking book, “Sustainability and the New Economics”. Rod is also host of the ‘Fuzzy Logic Science Show.” Rod was a previous guest on PGAP (Fuzzy Logic on a Fragile Planet with Rod Taylor). Stephen Williams and Mark Disendorf were also past guests on PGAP. You can listen to their episodes HERE and HERE.

The impressive list of guests on the documentary ‘Rethinking Sustainability' include (in order of appearance):

• Prof David Lindenmayer
• Prof Will Steffen
• Prof Clive Hamilton
• Dr Kerryn Higgs
• Prof Philip Lawn
• Dr Mark Diesendorf
• Prof Steve Keen
• Ian Dunlop
• Prof Steven Hail
• High Court Justice Michael Kirby
• Prof Ian Lowe

Last but not least, a shout out to environmental scientist David Tiller, who provided production assistance in the making of this documentary.

This episode of PGAP was produced just before the disastrous election results in the USA. As such your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen come across as merely VERY pessimistic at the state of the world, instead of EXTREMELY. Stay tuned for our upcoming episode, where we’ll address these events in more depth and discuss the underlying systemic issues that shape our society. In the meantime, you can explore these ideas further through Mark’s Holistic Activism movement.

Now more than ever, it is important that progressive podcasts are supported, as some panacea to the extreme right leaning media that are dominating the airwaves. Please consider supporting PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your networks, leaving a review on Apple Podcast and contacting us with your thoughts and feedback.

This episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast was made possible with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia.

Special Guest: Rod Taylor.

According to the Degrowth blog: "As degrowth becomes a more familiar term worldwide, a loose informal network of Australian degrowth activists, scholars and advocates has emerged into the formal Degrowth Network Australia (DNA)."

Although a new collective, DNA has already made their mark through workshops, Degrowth themed festivals, and at the New Economy Network Australia 2023 conference, through theatrical degrowth scenario skits. It was through this interactive workshop at the 'Life After Capitalism' conference that PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss was inspired to invite DNA as esteemed PGAP guests.

During this episode, we explore the emerging popularity of the Degrowth movement and how presenting Degrowth concepts within fun and interactive ways such as theatrical skits is a means of broadening the movement beyond the academic sphere and include younger generations, local communities and mainstream society. Our guests each share their stories of how they arrived at the Degrowth movement and their perspectives on why we can't have infinite growth on a finite planet.

To contribute, join the DNA network or get more details, contact Anisa Rogers at degrowthnetwork@proton.me or Natalie Lowrey at natalie.lowrey@gmail.com or campaign@aidwatch.org.au

Remember to RATE and REVIEW PGAP on APPLE PODCAST or on your favourite platform. You can also SUBSCRIBE to PGAP or CONTACT US with your thoughts, feedback or suggestions for future topics and guests. As we take a short break, we would really love to hear from you, our valued listeners and PGAP community.

In the meantime, you may also be interest in PGAP's coverage of the NENA conference HERE (Michael is still kicking himself for not recording the DNA workshop at the conference). You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss HERE and Mark Allen[ HERE].(https://holisticactivism.net/)

Special Guests: Sandy Gonzalez de la Vega Gonzalez and Tonié Field.

Our ‘manifesto’ on the population debate can be read on the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.”

Mark’s article “A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue” was published in MEDIUM and the Sustainable Population Australia newsletter May 2024 edition. Want to find out more about Holistic Activism? The booklet can be Downloaded HERE, or accessed at the Holistic Activism website.

Michael’s article “Population growth and wealth inequality are more entwined than we thought: here’s why” was originally published on the Population Media Center blog. An audio summary of the themes may be listened to at the ‘Rethinking Sustainability’ podcast, to which Michael was a guest for the short episode: “Growth and the Parasitic Economy”.

We believe that population sustainability is one essential component of transitioning to a post-growth society and we trust that this episode and our written contributions make for convincing arguments.

Kelvin Thomson, former Australian Federal MP and a huge influence on the population sustainability movement, has released an EP of original music. The track ‘Break Away’, that ends this episode, may be watched on YouTube here.

Sustainable Population Australia has launched a media release for World Population Day: “A population may survive but not thrive if it grows rapidly”. We have been told that this has had some positive response from the media, including interviews with SPA’s national president on mainstream radio.

You can add your name to SPA’s position statement HERE (already at 15,000 signatures) or find out more about how you can make a difference HERE. SPA’s contributions to the population debate are also discussed in this episode.

You can rate and review PGAP at Apple Podcast HERE. Feel free to contact us HERE with your feedback and suggestions, including ideas for future episodes.

(Australian Poster)

During this revealing interview, Maren discusses the importance of MMT and the journey that making a feature length documentary on this important topic has taken her on. The conversation also explores why it is crucial that MMT goes hand in hand with post growth narratives and why it is important to combine the two in order to create an economic system that works within limits to growth.

(Maren Poitras)

‘Finding The Money’ was filmed and produced in the USA with a focus around Stephanie Kelton’s advocacy in that country. However, Australia is the first country in the world to host screenings in advance of the documentary’s official release in the USA later this year. This is testament to the growing popularity of MMT in Australia and its many homegrown advocates of economic reform. These include institutions such as Modern Money Lab and Economic Reform Australia as well as author Steve Williams - all have been previous guests on PGAP.

You can find the dates of the Australian screening tour below and if you are in the right place at the right time, we strongly encourage that you go and see it. Not only is it a brilliant documentary but you will also have the opportunity to meet and greet Stephanie Kelton and Maren Poitras. CLICK HERE to book your tickets.

Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. We refer to SPA’s discussion paper in this interview: "Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population". Any views, opinions or legacy of our guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Your PGAP co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are very pleased and humbled by the excellent response to the podcasts that we have made so far this year. We have had more listens than ever before, so a big thank you to our ever-growing community! We truly believe that "Finding the Money" and the conversations in this episode are very important and worth supporting, so we would be very grateful if you could share this episode within your networks. Also, please feel free to contact us at any time with your feedback and thoughts.

You can find out more about your hosts here and here.

Special Guest: Maren Poitras.

Topics discussed with Timothée in this episode include:

• Reflections on the Degrowth movement within Europe, with particular focus on the 2023 Beyond Growth conference held at the EU parliament.

• Why “green growth” and economic decoupling are fallacies that are not backed by scientific evidence.

• Why demography is not an economic problem and why tinkering with demography won’t provide economic solutions.

• Timothée’s personal vision for a post-growth world (involving much more social equity and much less advertising).

We think you will agree that Timothée is a fantastic speaker on these issues, whose colourful use of metaphor and imagery makes for an engaging conversation.

We encourage you to read his article: “A response to The Economist: Shut up and let me grow”. This was an assertive response The Economist who wrote a critique of the 2023 Beyond Growth Conference, titled “Meet the lefty Europeans who want to deliberately shrink the economy.” Indeed.

There are many great YouTube videos highlighting Timothée’s impressive public speaking legacy. This Tedx Talk (which has attracted nearly 130 000 views) is in French, but if you don’t speak the language, you have the option of English subtitles. We also recommend his talk at the Beyond Growth conference: “How to finance welfare without growth?” He has also been interviewed on the Steady Stater Podcast. Otherwise, check out Timothée Parrique’s website here.

PGAP has been delighted and humbled by the fantastic listener support that we received for our last episode with First Nations cultural educator Larry Blight. Thank you to everyone who took the time share your kind words with us. In keeping with Degrowth values, PGAP does not use advertising and so depends on a supportive and generous community to get the word out. Please help us spread the good word by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We encourage you to review and rate PGAP on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform. You are welcome to contact us anytime with your thoughts, feedback and suggestions.

All views and perspectives of PGAP guests, including all past or present legacies, remain independent of the perspectives and legacies of PGAP and Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast. For a more in-depth look into some of the issues around discussing population, which were touched on during the outro of this episode, please read our blog post: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.”

Until next time, until then!

Special Guest: Timothée Parrique.

(graphic courtesy of NENA)

PGAP acknowledges the Ngunnawal, First Custodians of the country where the recordings of this conference took place. We pay respect to Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge that colonisation continues in the form of growth- based capitalism that privatises, pillages and pours concrete over lands that were never ceded. This is one aspect of an ongoing colonial mindset that pre-dates growth based capitalism.

PGAP will never be corporatised, so it relies upon word of mouth to spread the post-growth message. So please, if you get the opportunity, share this and other episodes within your networks. You can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or on your favourite podcast platform. You can also Contact us with your feedback, thoughts, questions as well as ideas for future guests or episode topics. If you choose to subscribe, that helps us a lot and it means that we can better keep you in the loop.

(PGAP making a presence at the NENA conference)

This is an absolute epic of an episode! It was recorded live across meeting rooms, hallways, scout halls and outdoors, so the quality of the recordings are variable. We would like to thank Andrew Skeoch for his additional editing support for this episode.

Attendees at the NENA conference. What a fantastic, game changing group of future leaders, thinkers and healers. Photo courtesy of Rod Taylor

We present to you our esteemed presenters and interviewees, in order of appearance (with time stamp):

Uncle Wally: ‘Welcome to Country’ ( 00:04:52 to 00: 13: 35)

Dr Mary Graham, UQ and Kombu-merri person: ‘Indigenous perspectives and “Relationist Economics” (00: 13: 36 to 00: 25: 59)

Tim Hollo, Executive Director of The Green Institute, ‘What’s wrong with capitalism anyway?’ (00: 27: 24 to 00: 34: 11)

Gareth Hughes, Wellbeing Economy Alliance NZ: ‘Will “wellbeing economies” save us?’ (00: 34: 27 to 00: 42: 25)
(For more on wellbeing economics, you may be interested in PGAP’s interview with Katherine Trebeck, who also spoke at the NENA conference)

Janet Salisbury, Women’s Climate Congress: Interview (00: 42: 41 to 00: 50: 51)

Donnie MacLurcan, Post-Growth Institute: “What might a degrowth and post-growth future look like?” ( 00: 52: 02 to 00: 57: 28)
(PGI’s Robert Wanalo was interviewed by PGAP in season 1)

Anitra Nelson, Author of ‘Exploring Degrowth’: “What could our lives look like after capitalism?” ( 00: 57: 44 to 01: 02: 23)
(Anitra was a past guest on PGAP which can be listened to here)

Anthony Gleeson, ‘The Sustainable Hour’ radio program: Interview ( 01: 02: 24 to 01: 08: 38)

Tom Ballard, Comedian and author of ‘I Millennial’: Conference Dinner Speaker ( 01: 10: 58 to 01: 32: 34)

Andrew Skeoch, nature sound recordist at 'Listening Earth': Interview followed by session “Deep listening to nature reveals how life cooperates, rather than competes” (01: 34: 15 to end).

PGAP would like to give a huge Huzzah to conference and NENA convenor Dr Michelle Maloney. She is so wonderful that she has been interviewed TWICE on PGAP for her work with NENA and AELA. Listen HERE and HERE. Do consider getting involved with NENA, and be part of the grassroots groundswell for systemic change.

All opinions recorded at the conference, including any past or future work or legacies of speakers and interviewees, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of position of PGAP or SPA, who support this podcast.

PGAP host Michael Bayliss also presented at the NENA conference, based on a report that he co-wrote for SPA on the housing crisis. The work of Michael Bayliss can be explored at his website here.

Until next episode folks, until then....

(Rob Dietz).

Rob is the Programs Director of Post Carbon Institute (PCI). A brilliant public speaker and story teller, Rob talks us through the journey of Crazy Town Podcast, which he co-hosts with colleagues Asher Miller and Jason Bradford. He also discusses the other initiatives and campaigns run by PCI, in addition to his unique vision of a Post-Growth future.

(Crazy Town's Logo).

We asked Rob to share two of his favourite Crazy Town Podcast Episodes that are linked below. We do warn you, that once you start listening to Crazy Town, you might not be able to stop!

• Episode 34. Fear of Death and Climate Denial, or… the Story of Wolverine and the Screaming Mole of Doom

• Episode 60. Chillin' and Killin': How Air Conditioning Has Altered Human Behavior and the Environment

Rob would also like us to share PCI’s report: “Welcome to the Great Unraveling: Navigating the Polycrisis of Environmental and Social Breakdown.” It is quality reading and we are pleased that it is making ripples.

The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’ from host Michael Bayliss’ band ‘Shock Octopus.’ First released in 2011, its apocalyptic tale – of a world that has become so impacted that even the billionaires who created the mess in the first place have no safe place to hide – is becoming all the more prophetic a decade later. Michael and co-host Mark have had our music recently played on the Freedom of Species radio show, here and here respectively.

(The iconic cover of the 'Safe Room' single).

We are also excited by the fact that Rob presented at an online Degrowth conference run by New Economy Network Australia (NENA). PGAP has interviewed NENA’s convenor Michelle Maloney twice. The video of Rob’s talk can be watched here.

Your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are pleased to be back for season five of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We hope you like the cosmetic changes of this episode (graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea Designs with photos from Photographica). We are looking forward to another season of quality guests and topics.

We have not been idle during our break. You may, for example wish to have a gander at two of our recent published articles, including:

• “Economic reform vital to solving housing crisis” - Mark Allen for Independent Australia

• “POPULATION GROWTH AND WEALTH INEQUALITY ARE MORE ENTWINED THAN WE THOUGHT: HERE’S WHY” – Michael Bayliss for Population Media Center blog.

We hit our record monthly listens twice in season four and with your word of mouth we can extend our outreach even further for season five. Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple podcast or your favourite platform. Don’t hesitate to contact us anytime with your feedback, thoughts or suggestions.

Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the support of Sustainable Population Australia. Any opinions, views and legacies past and present from our guests are theirs only and may not always reflect that of PGAP or SPA.

Episode Timestamp:

0:00:00 to 0:09:31 - Interview sound bye and introduction with Mark Allen
0:09:31 to 0:56:31 - Interview with Rob Dietz, hosted by Michael Bayliss
0:56:32 to 0:59:41 - Music, ‘Safe Room’ by ‘Shock Octopus’.
0:59:42 to 1:05:02 – Outro with Mark Allen

Special Guest: Rob Dietz.

EarthCare Permaculture Foundation needs your support. For example, a donation will help the centre invest in some much needed gardening tools and building structures. The centre is looking for volunteers and other enthusiastic people to help on site or to exchange knowledge and ideas. Follow EarthCare Permaculture Ghana on Facebook to find out more about how you can help. If you would like to make a donation over paypal, the email address is coffieinnocent8@gmail.com

PGAP also needs your support! Rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. Share this and other episodes of PGAP among your friends and networks. Contact us to let us know how we’re going, where we can improve, and what topics or guests you would like to see in future episodes.

Host Michael Bayliss feels a deep connection with the African continent and the many great thinkers and amazing grassroots community movements that are making waves. PGAP has previously interviewed Kenyan resident Robert Wanalo in season 1 and Ugandan born Florence Blondel in Season 2. We highly recommend listening to those episodes.

PGAP has also not shied away from covering permaculture and regenerative farming. We have interviewed some big names like David Holmgren and Charles Massy. You may also be interested in our interview with Shane Simonsen, who grows unconventionally in subtropical Queensland, or Murray Gomm, who grows locally to PGAP in our new home town of Albany.

All views, opinions, historical and present legacies of PGAP guests are exclusively theirs and may not necessarily reflect the opinions, views and legacies held by PGAP.

Special Guest: Innocent Kelvin Coffie.

This episode is dedicated to the memory of Dr. Haydn Washington. Haydn was a prolific and passionate writer and speaker on sustainability, degrowth, the need for population stabilisation and denialism against both climate and population realities. He wrote or edited many books. He was active in CASSE and the Ecological Economics community. The Australian Degrowth movement owes much to Haydn’s work. A tribute to Haydn can be found on Rod’s ‘Fuzzy Logic’ science show here. The link includes an interview that Rod did with Haydn at the 2013 Fenner Conference, organised by Sustainable Population Australia.

You can find out more about "10 Journeys on a Fragile Planet" here.

Want to find out more about the Fuzzy Logic Science show? You can listen via Canberra’s radio 2XX or via the Fuzzy Logic Podcast.

As a prolific and energetic volunteer for Sustainable Population Australia, Rod worked with PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss with many of SPA’s video productions, including: “Talking Heads: Choosing to have children...or not” and an interview with the Ambassador of Costa Rica, “Pura Vida Costa Rica with Ambassador Armando Vargas”. Michael owes much to Rod’s impeccable talent for camera angles and lighting.

Rod was also co-editor of "Sustainability and the New Economics" (Springer, 2022) with Steve Williams. PGAP interviewed Steve on a season 3 episode of PGAP. This volume is an invaluable addition to the post-growth economic movement.

"The path to sustainable civilisation" co-written by Rod Taylor and Mark Disendorf is set to be published in mid 2023. With the tag line - 'civilization's broken, this is how we fix it" - we can't wait for the launch!

Sustainable Population Australia has recently launched a new discussion paper, “How many Australians? The need for Earth-centric ethics” authored by Patron Dr. Paul Collins. Paul was also interviewed for a season 3 edition of PGAP here.

Find out more about co-host Mark Allen’s Holistic Activism movement here.

Support PGAP! Share this episode and others with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Got any feedback or a suggestion for a future episode? Contact us here.

It has been an epic 2022 for PGAP and the hosts. Thank you for being with us through this journey and see you again in the new year.

Special Guest: Rod Taylor.

Oranje Tractor certainly punches above its weight. It was the winner of the Gourmet Traveller Wine, Australia's Best Cellar Door Awards 2019. Oranje Tractor Farm was the winner of ACCI's Great Southern Business Awards for Environment and Sustainability in 2019 and was a Case Study for Circular Economy WA in 2022. It has been endorsed by Charles Massy (previous PGAP guest) and visited by then Prince Charles – now king (and not YET a PGAP guest).

But how do you produce good quality wine, along with an impressive variety of fruits, nuts and vegetables, in a manner that improves soil integrity and sequesters more carbon than what is emitted? Murray Gomm shares what happens ‘behind the scenes’ of how they do it and why Oranje Tractor is capturing the interest and imagination of so many people. Murray also provides some insight into the wider regenerative movement and the agricultural zeitgeist that is slowly beginning to influence new ways of approaching farming in the Great Southern of Western Australia.

For the introduction and outro of this episode, Michael is joined by co-host Mark Allen as they pick each other’s brain on topics such as: regenerative agriculture and permaculture; progress on the Asbestos campaign (as discussed in the last episode); and the result of SPA’s 8 billion competition and the commentary from the mainstream press for 8 billion day, which was reached on the 15th of November.

Timestamp for the episode

Intro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:00:00 – 0:06:37
Oranje Tractor interview with Murray Gomm: 0:06:38 - 0:58:24
Outro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:58:25 - End

Liked this episode and the themes of regenerative agriculture? You will love our interviews with Charles Massy, Shane Simonsen, Artist as Family and David Holmgren.

Like PGAP? Rate and review us on Apple Podcast and share the podcast widely with your family friends and networks.

Have a question for us? Got any suggestions for future discussion topics or interview guests? Contact PGAP anytime on our contact page here.

Further links you may be interested in:

Independent Australia published an article co-written by Mark and Michael: “Working towards an asbestos-free future.” A more extensive version can also be read on the PGAP blog. Our various asbestos misadventures were discussed in the season 4 premiere of PGAP.

There is an excellent article, published by Carbon8, showcasing FarmHand wines, another excellent regenerative winery. Written by Elena Burger Guimaraes. Currently available to read on Facebook.

ABC has interviewed Oranje Tractor on several occasions. Examples include here and here.

SPA (who supports PGAP) announced the winners of the 8 billion writers' competition here.

You can find out more about Mark Allen's other work with Town Planning Rebellion here.

You can find out more about Michael Bayliss at his website here.

Special Guest: Murray Gomm.

This first episode of the season is the culmination of a personal journey for them both. For Michael it is an opportunity to share his lived experiences in the West Australia rental market (in what has been labelled as the asbestos capital of the world) - that is too broken to care about whether the basic health and safety needs of renters are being met. Mark who shared in some of those experiences, goes on to look at how it all fits into a wider discussion on the systemic changes that are so urgently required in our town planning and housing sectors.

These experiences have also been written down in the form of a blog: “A Year in Asbestosville: A Farcical Tale of Systemic Failure.” This can be read on the PGAP blog or at Michael’s author profile on Medium. You are spoiled for choice!

In addition to our personal journeys, we also discuss some Degrowth related current affairs. For example…

Did you know that November 15th is the date that our global population will reach 8 billion people. Yay! But what does 8 billion mean for the planet, the environment and for you? Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast, are inviting you to answer this very question in 100 words (or less!) for your chance to win a prize. A link can be found to the competition here. The competition is open to all Australian residents who are not currently members of SPA and it is open until November 11th.

Also, how could we not talk about Liz Truss on a program about Degrowth? Before her six weeks as PM was over, Truss bemoaned the supposed anti-growth coalition. So, a growing number of people thought that this was a great idea and started one up. Mark is currently in conversation with the coalition about how best to frame the population issue in a way that prevents it from becoming overly divisive. Want to find out more? You can visit their website here.

(image found through internet image search).

Finally, we would like to give a nod to Dr. Alex Baumann, who has just released a YouTube video, “The Land Issue | A Social Science Sustainability Breakthrough". Our season 3 interview with Alex, ‘A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth’ has become PGAP’s highest performing ever episode. Hopefully this will help bring the importance of public housing and its role in our transition to degrowth, further into public consciousness.

Perhaps we are making a difference because this year, PGAP nudged into the top 6% of global podcasts! With your help, we can get PGAP into the top 5% of listens, which we would like to think is where it belongs. You can do your bit by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcasts so that others may be inspired to give us a go. Let’s help to build a movement of movements 😊.

You can find out more about Mark, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here
You can find out more about Michael at his website here

Want to explore more of the Formidable Vegetable discography? The video for ‘No Such Thing as Waste’, the featured song for this episode, can be seen here. We also play brand new track 'Short Attention Span' from brand new album 'In Real Life' at the end of the interview. Bandcamp is the best place to go to hear all the back catalogue. Link here.

PGAP will be taking a – hopefully – short break before rejuvenating with Season 4 later this year. Just because we’re on pause doesn’t mean you have to be! Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us here to give us your feedback and especially what topics and guests you’d like to see for season 4.

In the meantime, if you enjoy the permaculture theme you may also like PGAP’s interview with David Holmgren (who Charlie lived with back in 2020) or Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family. Or you may be interested in the Tasmanian Perspectives series of interviews in season 2, including the quiet permaculture revolution of Tassie’s northern shores, or Charles Massy, regenerative farmer, from Season 3. Most of these episodes have Formidable Vegetable providing the music.

If you want to find out more about host Michael Bayliss, please head to my website here.

Otherwise, episode timestamp below and see you all in a few months! Until then, until then….

Timestamp!

0:00:00 - 0:08:13 Introduction with Michael Bayliss
0:08:13 - 0:10:59 'No Such Thing As Waste' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.
0:11:00 - 1:03:11 Interview with Charlie Mgee
1:03:11 - 1:04:05 'Short Attention Span' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.
1:04:06 - 1:06:31 Outro with Michael Bayliss

Special Guest: Charlie Mgee.

Quoting from the AELA Website, Greenprints “provides a practical, step-by-step approach to help people understand both the big picture and the small details, of how to transform our societies and thrive within our ecological limit”. Greenprints “offers a process to help us find and use the very best sustainability & regenerative approaches, so we can redesign societies to thrive within our local, regional & global ecological limits.”

This episode was recorded online during severe gale force winds in Albany and severe rainfall in Brisbane, which unfortunately impacted on the resulting sound quality. Unfortunately folks, climate change even impacts our podcast listening experience!

More information can be found on the Greenprints website here. An introductory video from Michelle on Greenprints can be watched on YouTube here.

(A model of the greenprints steps reproduced here with courtesy from the Greenprints website)

Greenprints is a practical tool for community groups, workplaces and local government. If you or your community would benefit from Greenprints, please contact AELA, details on their website here.

The online seminar from Prof. Will Steffen, where I first heard about the Greenprints initiative, can be viewed on YouTube here: “Planetary Boundaries: 2022 Update with Professor Will Steffen - Greenprints Exchange Workshop Series.” Steffen also presented at the March 2022 Fenner conference which I helped to organise with Sustainable Population Australia. A video of the presentation can also be viewed on YouTube: “Can we feed all the people and not destroy the Earth?”

Dr Michelle Maloney was previously interviewed by PGAP all the way back in Season 1. One of our more popular episodes, “Reimagining an Earth Centered Economy with Michelle Maloney” can be heard here.

You may also be interested in the second season PGAP episode: “Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river with Professor Anne Poelina.” Anne Poelina is a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner who chairs the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and is working alongside AELA and the Greenprints initiative.

Did you enjoy this episode? You can support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. We are grateful for any constructive feedback or ideas for future guests and episodes, contact us here.

More information regarding PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found at my personal website here.

All opinions from PGAP guests, including their past or present legacies, are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast.

Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.

Dr. Shane Simonsen operates a ‘Zero Input Agriculture’ farm in the highlands of South-East Queensland. What does zero input mean and does it work? Shane shares with PGAP how a zero input system works, in addition to weaving his vast knowledge and unique insights into a very pithy conversation with PGAP host Michael Bayliss.

Shane regularly posts on his farm and his worldly observation on his website, Zero Input Agriculture, which we encourage you to explore. Shane has also been a guest on podcasts such as Abundant Edge.

Shane and I are mutual contacts of Michel Stasse and Doon Wyborn, both doing great things in permaculture and collapse awareness. Both have also been previous guests on PGAP. You can listen to Doon’s interview here and Michel here.

Do you enjoy this episode? Then please Support PGAP. Subscribe here. Contact us here. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast.

Last episode I interviewed regenerative farming icon Charles Massy to promote the Fenner conference ‘Making Australian Agriculture Sustainable.’ The Fenner conference proved to be fantastic with its array of fantastic speakers and its juggling of the precariousness of Australia’s agricultural predicaments while also offering many hopeful solutions. I certainly learnt a lot more about dung beetles! The conference was supported and sponsored by Sustainable Population Australia, who also support this podcast. Good on them!

These are a couple of online screenshots from the first day of the conference. I am sure higher quality photos, taken on ground, will be available soon!

The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’, the first recorded single from my band ‘Shock Octopus’ back in 2011. Back then, songs about collapse were still seen as somewhat niche in the WA music scene (and in mainstream society more broadly). These days, collapse is so obviously a thing that even the Murdoch Press are talking about it! What can I say, I was there first. You can find out more about ‘Safe Room’ at the Shock Octopus Bandcamp page here (you can even support the artist and buy a copy – hint).

Would you like to find out more about PGAP’s host, Michael Bayliss? You can find out more at my website here.

Disclaimer: All opinions from PGAP’s guests are theirs alone, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or position held by PGAP, Michael Bayliss, or Sustainable Population Australia. This includes all current and previous research, work, advocacy or opinions attributable to our interviewees.

Special Guest: Dr. Shane Simonsen.

Alex discusses why the privatisation of land forces us all into lifestyles that are antithetical to the degrowth movement and why housing needs to be at the core of post-growth activism. Alex also explains why public housing is one overlooked solution and how reinvigorating this asset is part and parcel to a degrowth future. Ready to have your whole perspective on housing turned around? This is the episode for you!

Dr. Alex Baumann and I found each other on the Town Planning Reblellion (TPR) Facebook group. Find out more about TPR and its parent organisation, Holistic Activism here. Want to be an ACTIVE part of the housing revolution? This is a great place to start.

I interviewed TPR founder, Mark Allen on season 2’s “Exploring Christie Walk EcoHousing with Adelaide Chronicles and Town Planning Rebellion.” If you liked the themes in this episode you’ll love that one.

I first came across Alex’s good work in an article in The Conversation titled: “We are the 1%: the wealth of many Australians puts them in an elite club wrecking the planet.” The article was co-written with Samuel Alexander, whose has been a inspiration for me in the Degrowth movement.

Speaking of Samuel Alexander! The song of choice for this episode, “Meditations on Simplicity” is from the Mortimer’s Method album ‘Dreaming Backwards, Falling Awake’, based on excerpts from the Degrowth fiction novel ‘Entropia’ by Samuel Alexander.

‘Entropia’ isn’t the only fiction work on post-growth out there. PGAP interviewed Sharon Ede, post-growth activist and author of ‘Mage’, in season two of PGAP.

Alex is even more animated on video! He explains many of the points raised in this episode and more in the YouTube video “A New Path to Sustainability.”

Ted Trainer is an inspiration for Alex and was brought up several times during the interview. You can hear the PGAP interview with Ted in full here.

Finally, Martin Tye, Australian regional chapter director of CASSE, will be giving a zoom presentation for the Sustainable Living Festival on "Degrowth & the Steady State" on 06th February, 9am AEDT. More information can be found on the SLF website. Martin was a guest on the first ever episode of PGAP and I’m sure he will be just as excellent in his presentation as he was on the episode! Essentially, I can't recommend him enough.

Please contact PGAP with your thoughts and feedback or rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Share PGAP with your friends, families, network, your bitter enemies and the neighbourhood cat. Basically, everyone.

Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the kind support of SPA

Special Guest: Alex Baumann.

Having crossed paths with Terry Leahy through several community, gardening and permaculture initiatives in Melbourne, it was fantastic to reconnect with Terry again and dig in deep (literally and figuratively) over this very fascinating and thought provoking book.

Support Post-Growth Australia Podcast. Subscribe to us through this link . Contact us on the contact form here. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here. PGAP exists free of corporate sponsorship and advertising, so we rely exclusively on word of mouth to sow the seeds of the podcast that explores the most critical issues facing the planet.

Would you like your very own copy of 'The Politics of Permaculture?' You can acquire it through Pluto Press here

The song of choice from this episode is the very topical 'Climate Movement' from Formidable Vegetable. . Given how many times I have played Formidable Vegetable on PGAP, it is fair to say that I am quite the fan. It was wonderful to see them play live at New Years Eve in Albany and to discover we are (sort of) neighbours.

If you would like to find out more about Terry Leahy's work he has kindly provided some links below:

Leahy, Terry (2019) Food Security for Rural Africa: Feeding the Farmers First, Routledge.

Leahy, Terry (2017) Humanist Realism for Sociologists, Routledge,

Leahy, Terry, Website – [The Gift Economy](www.gifteconomy.org.au)

Leahy, Terry – YouTube channel: What’s Wrong with the World and How to Fix it.

Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary - 53 minutes version

Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary- 20 minutes educational version

And if this wasn't enough links:

I recently had my 'post-growth manifesto' published on the Ending Overshoot blog. It is based on the script I used for the Christmas 2021 PGAP special.

In Season 1 of PGAP I interviewed Anitra Nelson who had just co-authored an exciting overview of the Degrowth movement. I actually met Anitra through one of Terry's day parties. It is all one big happy and most functional family at PGAP!

Too much permaculture barely enough? PGAP has interviewed David Holmgren, Caroline Smith, Tania Brookes and Artist as Family

Special Guest: Terry Leahy.

Joshua Spodek is a bestseller author, multiple TEDx talker and host of award winning podcast “This Sustainable Life”. Joshua is a huge advocate for the environment and for system change toward a post-growth planet. He takes his politics into his home life and made some incredible life transformations in his mission to living more sustainably. So, how has a move toward a meat-free life of no food packaging and no plane miles played out for our special guest on the Season 3 Premiere of PGAP? Is this a life of wilful deprivation and martyrdom? Or have these personal challenges transformed his life into one of joy and a different kind of abundance? Joshua tells all through amusing personal anecdotes coupled with an incredibly well-read and researched outlook on the world.

“We have to change ourselves if we expect others to change. Being right is….really annoying.” - Joshua Spodek

Welcome back to Post-Growth Australia Podcast after a brief hiatus. I for one am very honoured to be launching the Season 3 Premiere of PGAP with such as distinguished guest as Joshua Spodek. His long history in public speaking alone will ensure that your ears are serenaded for the next 60 minutes! A cursory viewing of any of his TEDx talks will prove my point: here; here; or here;

You may also have noticed that PGAP has had a bit of face-lift, with an update to the graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea designs. I hope you like the changes! Looking forward to a mammoth season 3 with a stellar array of amazing guests. The new intro sounds for Season 3 PGAP provided courteousy of Perth composer Nicholas Gardiner. Find out more here.

“Growth on its own means always craving what you don’t have. It means craving. It means ‘never satisfied’.” – Joshua Spodek

I first discovered Joshua big time when he interviewed my colleague from Sustainable Population Australia, Dr. Jane O’Sullivan on his podcast ‘This Sustainable Life.’ Jane was invited to discuss a recent discussion paper she wrote for SPA debunking the ageing population crisis myth. ‘Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why we should not fear an ageing population’ is available on the SPA website and makes for very eye-opening reading.

The link to the interview can be found here. ‘This Sustainable Life’ is an amazing podcast series where big name guests are invited to make personal changes to their lives – for the inspiration of all! I myself have an interview coming up on the offshoot podcast series ‘This Sustainable Life: Solve For Nature.’ Stay tuned!

_ “Efficiency in a finite world with growth leads to scarcity.” _– Joshua Spodek

In the introduction to this episode I brought up how Australia is facing a urea shortage which has potentially dire consequences for our diesel and trucking industries (whould woulda thunk?) If you are interested in reading more, have a gander here.

The above is just one symptom of what will soon be a much larger chain of supply chain issues and resource scarcity. Last month I shared around this article “It’s Not a Supply Chain Crisis — It’s a Failing Economy” on my Twitter feed just in time for the festive season! Want me to discuss limits to growth at YOUR next festive event? Pick up the phone - I'm a literal SCREAM at parties!

_ “next time you’re stuck in Traffic, next time you’re waiting in line some place, imagine a world of 2 billion people.”_

Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast, aren’t claiming to turn the world’s numbers back to 2 billion overnight, but they are loudly advocating for an equitable world with equitable access to family planning and reproductive health services. They are also advocating to decouple population policy in Australia from the narrow interests of big business and big finance. Have a look at their ‘Let’s Rethink Big Australia’ campaign.

“my swimming upstream makes it so that others feel they’re swimming downstream – and then it feels like I’m swimming downstream as well.”

If you loved this episode we have some choice PGAP recommendations for you. Amrit Sandhu from Season 2 'Inspired Evolution' episode is also a podcast host and a personal transformation coach. Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family, who premiered season 2, live through example in their ‘neo-peasantry’ homestead in Victoria, Australia. Lastly, Nandita Bajaj, director of Population Balance, is another vegan in North America who lives a minimalist lifestyle and advocates for a sustainable population.

Please remember to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. If you have any suggestions, feedback, or just want to say “hi’ please feel free to contact me anytime on the contact form thus.

Til next time, til then!

Special Guest: Joshua Spodek.

During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

PGAP also speaks with freelance economic thinker Zoltan Bexley to find out more about why Australia’s current economic system results in many poor outcomes for many of us, such as the favourite bugbear on PGAP – Australia’s housing unaffordability crisis.
_
Please not that opinions raised in this episode are those of both guests and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of ERA as a whole.
_

Host Michael Bayliss reflects on the dizzying last 12 months on the road, armed with microphone and recording hardware, that has resulted in on-the-ground PGAP views spanning the east coast from the highlands of the NSW/QLD border, down to Tasmania, then across to Adelaide. Now settled in Albany, Western Australia, I take time on this episode to reflect on the amazing journey and the incredible diversity of people doing outstanding post-growth things as we finally wrap up for season 2 of PGAP.

PGAP will be taking a short break to revamp our graphics, create a new website and most importantly, take a well-earned break before we return with a vengeance for season 3.
In the meantime, you can while away the time by meandering through these following links:

The Economic Reform Australia (ERA) website can be found here. Sign up for a regular online journal and if you live in Adelaide, ERA regularly host events that take place within the heart of Adelaide's CBD.

Please take the time during PGAP’s break to rate and review this podcast. Apple Podcast seems best place to do so.

We would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on PGAP. Please don’t hesitate to contact us on our contact page to let us know what you truly think of us (within reason). If you would like to be interviewed by PGAP, or know someone you’d like to dob in, please contact us. Host Michael Bayliss is also available for interview – he loves being a host but he also misses being a guest!

PGAP relies on word of mouth to get around, we don’t use any advertising or paid promotion. So, please get out there and spread our agnostic gospel on post-growth.

Michael wrote statement on behalf of Sustainable Population Australia, “Rethinking Big Australia: the impacts of COVID-19”. Extracts from the statement have been published at ‘Independent Australia’ and the ‘Ending Overshoot’ blog.

PGAP is made possible from the support of ‘Sustainable Population Australia'. At PGAP, we put our hat off to SPA for allowing this podcast to explore the broader issue of degrowth in which the population debate is one controversial but a necessary moving piece of discussion in the movement. Throughout the two seasons of PGAP, we often ask our guests at least one question of population and invite a diversity of opinions that invites open discussion rather than closed division. This is the only way we’re going to move forward on issues that we may not always see eye to eye on.

Speaking of SPA, they have launched a ‘Let’s Rethink Big Australia’ campaign. We invite you to check it out.

Speaking of checking out, PGAP wishes you well and see you soon for season 3.

Timestamp:

Intro 00:00 - 06:56
Bernard 07:08 - 34:16
Zoltan 34:24 - 01:02:05
Outro 01:02:16 - 01:04:58

Special Guests: Bernard Thomson and Zoltan Bexley.

So reads the back cover of new fiction book ‘Mage’ written by sustainability professional, post-growth advocate and Adelaide local Sharon Ede. In this penultimate episode of the second season of PGAP, Sharon tells us why fiction, story-telling and emotional resonance are essential communications tools for the environmental movement to engage with the broader community. Providing facts and figures to rally the troops over large-scale existential crises has so far failed to work. Engaging people emotionally through storytelling and providing a ripping yarn just might be the missing link. Mage is definitely this kind of book and hopefully this interview will convince you to add 'Mage' to your post-growth library.

I have not come across much post-growth fiction in my travels. Up until a few years ago, the 1970s novel ‘Ecotopia’ provided a fascinating day-to-day account on how a more ecocentric society might operate on the west coast of the USA. Unfortunately, the book is starting to show its age somewhat in some of its social justice attitudes when looked back through the lens of the 21st century. A much more up to date fictional account of a post-growth society can be found in the 2013 novel ‘Entropia’ by Dr Samuel Alexander. At a seminar at the 2019 Earth Ethics conference in Melbourne, Dr Alexander shared with attendees the importance for story-telling and art to carry the environmental message to the broader world.

In fact, the music project ‘Mortimer's Method’ took this idea of art as education a step further by putting samples from the audio-book of 'Entropia' to modern music. An extract of the track 'How Now Shall We Live' is provided at the end of the episode.

‘Mage’ joins this pantheon and yet Sharon Ede goes beyond utopian society fiction and casts a much broader net with her new novel. Spanning the continents between Adelaide, Venice and the Arctic, Mage brings together many of the ideas and innovations that Sharon has picked up through her years as an environmental and Post-Growth advocate. It is a ripping epic of a yarn, worthy of comparisons to Dan Brown, Tim Powers or even an episode of Doctor Who.

This episode was recorded, once more, on site at Christie Walk eco-development in Central Adelaide. In fact, it was recorded on the same evening as my interview with Sue Gilbey and Mark Allen in the previous episode of PGAP! So thank you to Christie Walk for providing the venue and Sue for providing the recording technology. Sue and Mark stayed around for the interview, so on occasion they can be heard in the background during the interview.

It has been a pleasure to spend some time in Adelaide and to interview the post-growth movers and shakers who call this fine part of the world home. So it is with slight sadness on my part that this is not only the penultimate episode of The Adelaide series of interviews, but also the penultimate episode of the second series of PGAP. The second season of PGAP has been an epic travelogue almost worthy of ‘Mage’ including on site interviews from Northern Rivers to Adelaide and just about everywhere in between. It has been an incredible ride and thank you all for listening and travelling with me on this journey of discovery.

** Too much Post-Growth barely enough? Here are some links to further occupy your time. Thank me later!**

A online link to find out more about Mage (and the seal the deal on your own personal copy) can be found here

Want to find out more about Sharon and her extensive work outside of writing great fiction? Make a good start here

The previous episode of PGAP was also recorded at Christie Walk (link here). Sue Gilbey interviewed Sharon for the Adelaide Chronicles podcast (link here)

I mentioned Dr Michelle Maloney and the Earth Ethics conference of 2019. Michelle and her work with Australian Earth Law Alliance (AELA) and New Economy Network Australia (NENA) were interviewed for PGAP here

Sharon was a founding member of the Post Growth Institute. PGI's Robert Wanalo was interviewed in PGAP season 1 here

The ABC article I referred to in the intro for this episode was titled "Sustainable development won't solve environmental crises, say these experts. It's simpler than that"

Special Guest: Sharon Ede.

This is an interview in two parts. In part one of the interview, I caught up with Sue at Christie Walk to share her amazing life story, which includes a travelogue of rural Australia, Bangladesh and Cambodia. She shares her work campaigning for a sustainable and inclusive future for all people. Sue herself lives with an acquired disability, but this has not held her back from her tireless activism which includes hosting the incredible Adelaide Chronicles podcast.

In Part 2, I met up again with Sue at Christie Walk and was delighted to be joined by Mark Allen from Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism. Using Christie Walk as a central focus, the conversation then broadens into a discussion at to why alternative housing models are a critical part of the transition toward a post-growth world. Further, how the developer and investor infiltrated housing sector makes this crucial change so difficult. Mark Allen is a return guest to PGAP, having been a special guest in last year’s Retrosuburbia episode with David Holmgren. Mark also provides the music for this episode, via the track ‘Lost and Found Hours’ from his music project ‘Counting Backwards.’

This was the first time PGAP has attempted a three way interview on location and we were very fortunate to take advantage of Sue’s amazing portable 360 degree recording device. Sue and I ebb in an out of swapping ‘interviewer’ and ‘interviewee’ roles but I think we just about pull it off in a post-modern way. It is not every day you get to describe the aims of your podcast on your own show but we live in fascinating times.

This episode was recorded with gratitude on unceded Kaurna land and PGAP pays respect to elders past, present and emerging.

Special Guests: Mark Allen and Sue Gilbey.

This special travelogue episode of PGAP was recorded all the way back in January 2021. My car and I had left Melbourne after the second lockdown and we were enjoying the coastline of NSW when COVID started creeping into Sydney and Brisbane again. Originally I intended to only go as far north as Coffs Harbour, but as I couldn’t get back to Victoria, I received an invitation to stay for a week or so at in intentional community inland of the Northern Rivers, right on the border of Queensland and right near a town called ‘Woodenbong.’ I was intrigued and took up the offer.

At Bindarrabi, I joined the residents at house meetings, communal dinners, gardening bees, path and wall building, and a lot of swimming during the warm days at the amazing water holes. Every single one of the amazing residents at Bindarrabi were incredibly gracious and made me feel right at home and part of a buzzing community. Toward the end of my stay, Doone and I impulsively agreed to record an interview, in a tin caravan come office during a heavy sub-tropical summer rainfall. I feel that this gives the interview a sense of place an intimacy.

I’m not sure why I held onto this interview for so long, however the broadcast of this episode falls shortly after the sobering news of the new report by the IPCC. This is accidentally great timing, as Doone’s interview starts off with a tour of Bindarrabi before going deeper into a reflection of overshoot, collapse and environmental tipping points. Doon does not shy away from sharing his emotions and concerns as the interview progresses and indeed I feel compelled to give a slight disclaimer to be emotionally prepared before listening to this episode.

The choice of music this episode is ‘No Easy Way Down’ from my own band ‘Shock Octopus.’ . Given the sobering news of the IPCC report and some of the discussions in this interview, I thought it would be quite thematically consistent to play a song that is about climate change from the perspective of a polar bear. ‘No Easy Way Down’ was released as a fundraiser single last year to raise funds for Extinction Rebellion.

Following the episode, want to explore some more? Let these links be thine guide!

The sixth assessment report of The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) can be read in full here. Given the future of existence depends in part on following these recommendations, I do agree taking the time to read in full. Otherwise, I like the summary from The Guardian here.

The homepage for the Bindarrabi community can be found here. They are looking for new additions to their community if you’re feeling the call.

Recently I spoke at Adelaide based Economic Reform Australia. I strongly recommend checking them out, they have a great newsletter full of economic critique articles.

I was interviewed on Radio Adelaide Songcatcher and Mixtape programs to talks about the stories behind the songs with my decade long band Shock Octopus. If you’re tired of hearing me ramble about post-growth and would rather I ramble about another topic, these links are for you.

A huge thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for making the podcast possible.

Special Guest: Doone Wyborn.

The previous three ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ episodes of PGAP included interviews with amazing people doing amazing local projects in amazing practical ways within their local communities. While this was all very encouraging, some of the interviewees also expressed some grave concerns for the future for the planet and our well-being.
From my perspective, it was great to follow these interviews up with one of my heroes, Dr. Ted Trainer, who provides a broad picture theoretical framework to the many exciting transition projects already happening at the grass roots.He also shares a sense of cautious optimism to the seismic shift in collective consciousness since he began advocating for limits to growth in the 70s.

After the interview, I reflect a little on my own personal journey over the last 10 years in intentional communities, permaculture projects, urban gardening project and system change organisations. I reflect on the many positives and ‘wins’ for the communities, as well as the challenges as we try to relearn how to live and work together in community in balance with the rigours and demands of the current, modern society.

I also keep everyone up to date with one of my favourite love/hate obsessions, that being the utter ridiculousness of the housing market. Normally I’d apologise for using a public soapbox as a therapeutic catharsis tool, but given my many conversations with people on this issue, I somehow don’t think I’m just speaking for myself here!

Did you enjoy the interview with Ted Trainer and want to find out more? Glad you asked!

A link to The Simpler Way can be found here and here
A link to The Simplicity Institute can be found here. Ted has a profile page here
To find out more about Ted himself, he has a Wikipedia page
I really love his book Transition to a Sustainable and Just World
The transition town movement was discussed in the interview. Find out more at the Transition Network
Paul Ehrlich is an inspiration to Ted Trainer and to Sustainable Population Australia who support this Podcast (Thanks SPA!). Find out more about Erlich’s pioneering work here.

There was an article in the Scientific American bunking growth based economics. Essential reading here
In the intro I mentioned the shortage of timber. Read more about that here

*Like PGAP? Thoughts, feedback? *
Write to us on our contact page here
Why not jump right down the rabbit hole and subscribe here?
If you’re feeling up to a review, please rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here
Share this podcast wildly with your friends, family, colleagues and networks.

PGAP would like to thank Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this podcast, and for allowing a platform to explore the broader post-growth landscape.

Special Guest: Ted Trainer.

In the 'Tasmanian Perspectives’ series, PGAP host Michael Bayliss travels around the Apple Isle to interview Post-Growth mainlanders who have resettled in Tasmania and to discuss their reasons why.
In this episode, I travel to the Huon Valley to meet with Michel Stasse, long-time Degrowth advocate, founder of the 'Damn The Matrix' blog and DIO superhero who self-built an impressive self-sufficient, off-grid eco home in the Huon Valley.

Mike kindly took some time aside for giving me a tour of his home where the on-site interview took place and discussed with me his reasons for moving from Queensland to Tasmania. We then discuss his life journey towards understanding limits to growth, standing for politics in Queensland, to his current advocacy for Degrowth and his reasons why electric cars and the green new deal won’t save us.

I interviewed Mike in February on a hot day for Tasmania - mid 30s - and the day in which Australia endured the Facebook kerfuffle, including the removal of content from Australian activist groups and organisations. As such, there was a whiff of apocalypse already in the air, and during the interview Mike certainly doesn't mince words as he takes us somewhere down the deep end. So a 'health warning’ for anyone expecting a utopian outlook for this episode.

Also a slight 'sound warning’ - the episode was recording on site in a dynamic living environment so there is the occasional background sound during the interview. The intro and outro are recorded in my current house-sit in Adelaide, which is right near a main road and right near an operational quarry. So there is the occasional background traffic rumble. Some may call it unfortunate recording conditions - I prefer to call it 'character.' Anyone listening who would prefer pristine recording conditions is always more than welcome to buy me a house somewhere nice ANYTIME.

Did this episode scratch the surface leaving you wanting more? Want to find out more about Mike Stasse or Professor Ian Lowe, who is mentioned in my discussions with Mike and who I include an interview excerpt at the start of the episode? Well I'm glad you asked!

The blog 'Damn The Matrix’ can be found here

Michel discusses peak oil (and other fun things!) on YouTube here

I interviewed Professor Ian Lowe as part of Sustainable Population Australia's 'meet our patrons' video series that can be found on the YouTube channel here. Excerpts from that interview were played at the start of this episode. More information on Ian Lowe can be found on the SPA website here.

Also....if you liked the music track of choice Epi-Primate, I am relived that the band Heytesburg still have a presence on BandCamp here, even though they are on indefinite hiatus. I can't believe this track is almost a decade old now.

Special Guest: Michael Stasse.

Well, who better to come to my rescue on this philosophical quagmire of a question than Dr. Katherine Trebeck, co-Author of "The Economics of Arrival: Ideas for a Grown-Up Economy."

In addition to being a star class writer, Katherine is Senior Strategic Advisor for the Wellbeing Economy Alliance – a global collaboration she co-founded in 2018, the same year she co-founded WEAll Scotland. Before then, she had a prodigious history with Oxfam. She is also one of those people who have given a talk for TedX and amassed over 65 000 views. Impressed yet?

However, as I live a very sheltered and insular life, I first came across Katherine Trebeck when I stumbled upon the Melbourne book launch of 'Economics of Arrival' (which she co-wrote with the equally impressive Jeremy Williams) almost by accident. I was meeting up for drinks with fellow post-growth activists who talked me into coming along to the book launch. I was immediately blown away by Katherine's speech at the event and bought the book on the spot.

I don't know HOW Katherine and Jeremy did it, but they achieved the almost impossible: they wrote a full-length book about economics and made it an incredibly interesting and absorbing read. I normally read ‘topical’ books only when necessary for my work, but I remember in October 2019 flipping through the pages eagerly on the tram every day on the way to the week-long Extinction Rebellion actions. The book provided a fantastic big-picture perspective on how a better world could look like. This proved to be a great motivator to begin a day's worth of protesting!

Katherine's humanity, curiosity and sense for social justice shines through every page in 'Economics Of Arrival' just as it does when I spoke with her, a year and a half later on PGAP.

The choice of muzak today is 'Ticonderoga' by Melbourne art-rock duo 'Privateer'. This can all be found on their branch new EP "Winter's Dream." .

So sit back, enjoy the discussion and if, after the interview, you feel you still haven't arrived and are hankering for more of Katherine's great work:

Dr. Katherine Trebeck's website can be found here.

The 'Economics of Arrival’ can be bought here.

Why the Future Economy has to be a Wellbeing Economy | Katherine Trebeck | TEDxMünche - this video has merely received 65,114 YouTube views. Make sure you're number 65, 115!

Katherine is co-founder of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance. Anyone who loves post-growth will adore WEAll so check them out now!

IF YOU LIKED THIS EPISODE OF PGAP YOU MAY ALSO LIKE:

Post Growth Institute with Robert Wanalo - Robert is a member of WEAll (just like Katherine!) and a member of Post-Growth Institute (just like Katherine's co-author Jeremy Williams!)

In the wrap-up to the interview, I made some observations on contrasting opinions to fellow author Karen Shragg , who I interviewed just one episode ago. Worth checking out to draw out your own comparisons!

If you are interested in a global south perspective on family planning and population sustainability, my interview with Ugandan born Florence Blondel is probably still my favourite of all the conversations on PGAP so far.

Special Guest: Dr Katherine Trebeck.

Karen Shragg member of the advisory board of the non-profit “World Population Balance”, and “Earth Overshoot”. I remember being first impressed by Karen’s public speaking when she spoke at the COP25 Madrid panel on Overpopulation and Climate Change, along with Portugal’s João Abegão, who I have also interviewed on a season 1 episode of PGAP. Karen’s capacity to speak to the facts in a colourful, personable and emotional way was on full display at the COP25 panel and also very reflective on the way she writes on environmental issues. That the YouTube video has nearly 18 000 views is a testament.

Karen is a stellar communicator for Children and Adults alike. This is evident in the children’s series of books that she co-wrote, ‘Nature’s Yucky’. It is also evident in her fantastic book ‘Move Upstream: A Call To Solve Overpopulation' and her poignant ‘Move Upstream’ blog. However, it is Karen’s latest publication ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ which if the focus of this episode of PGAP.

A short concise and very manageable book at around 80 pages, ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ nevertheless manages to cover much stomping ground, challenging six sticky world views that most of us in society hold, which Karen believes hold the stories which we use to justify business as usual human expansion at the expense of the natural world. My aim was to structure the interview around asking Karen a question around each of the chapter topics. Which I sort of managed to do so despite my usual tangents and distractions. Karen makes this a very engaging and dynamic conversation and I hope you enjoy!

The issue of population has again become topical in Australia, as the mainstream media has reported that the country's population has been shrinking since the COVID induced closure of our borders. This is not entirely true - we've had a quarterly decline, but a modest annual increase of population growth. This is, however, much lower than in previous years and has resulted in panic and calls to return to normal ASAP from many in the economic, big business and demographic communities. Well known demographer Dr Liz Allen, for example, was recently interviewed on the ABC to advocate for a return to previous levels of economic migration to avoid apparent economic and demographic disasters. This time, however, Sustainable Population Australia - who kindly support this podcast - were invited to speak on ABC Radio Sydney to provide a counterview to these concerns. For anyone concerned about Australia’s population growth OR about alternatives to growth as usual, hopefully this is a promising sign for many more future on-air discussions.

More information regarding the interview can be found on the SPA website here along with a recent media release from SPA that can be found here.

But enough about us. Want to find out more about Karen Shragg?

Click here for her website 'Moving Upstream'. There you can find her bio, blog, bibliography, and anything else starting with the letter B!

She had an opinion piece recently published in the Boston Herald: 'Immigration growth is an environmental issue'

If you haven't had enough of Karen's dulcet tones on podcast form, her interview with Rewilding Earth is excellent.

I've already linked it, but I just think the whole Cop25 Madrid panel where Karen spoke is just the bee's knees.

Finally, did you forget to buy her new book ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’? Shame on you! Fix this right now by following this link to Amazon (never thought I'd be plugging Amazon but we live in strange times!)

Special Guest: Karen Shragg.

Now I don’t know about you, but this can often fill me with depression, anxiety, existential depression and morose apathy. And this is just on one of my rare good, well-adjusted days. So how do we keep ourselves hopeful, in good spirits and avoid turning into one of those bitter, cynical sterotypes that our younger selves were adamant we'd never become? Why do all those life coaches and spiritual types all seem to look so happy, smiling away with those big white teeth which look like they’ve never had to down a surly cup of black, treacly coffee in ages? PGAP talks to Amrit Sandhu - life coach, conversationalist, fellow podcast host -of Inspired Evolution - and long-term smiler, laugher and optimist - to give us some sagely advice.

I remember the first few times I met Amrit – we kept bumping into each other at yoga workshops and meditation retreats. You couldn’t really miss Amrit as his joyful laughter filled the room a good five minutes before he event entered it. A few months later Amrit invited me to his Inspired Evolution Facebook group. My social media feed was full of doom, gloom, human error and looming environmental apocalypse. So it took me as surprise when these Inspired Evolution posts kept flicking up – they were full of gasp good news, positive stories, people doing lovely things to each other and their environment. Such a panacea for my social-media mental health and a daily injection of optimism my soul so needed.

I then started listening to the ‘Inspired Evolution’ podcast and YouTube videos. I had no idea there were that many entrepreneurs and game-changers out there, doing great things that often intersect with Post-Growth theory, and making a livelihood out of it to boot! Amrit opened my eyes and ears (and probably my heart and soul) and we came friends ever since. He is a brilliant podcast host too!

So what happens when two podcast hosts get together? Lots of laughter for a start, closely followed by plenty of D&Ms as Amrit shares how he got out of the toxic construction industry to now do what he does best. Can Amrit turn me into an optimist over the course of an interview or will I drag him down into my black abyss where he so rightfully belongs? The race is on! And the most important philosophical question for all of us – when two podcast hosts talk, who becomes interviewer and who becomes interviewee?

You’ll just have to listen and find out for yourself, won’t you.

Talking about interviewer/interviewee dynamics, I was actually interviewed by Amrit for the Inspired Evolution podcast, which has just been launched. It was difficult for me to get in the habit of ANSWERING questions rather than ASKING them, but if you want to know my warped thoughts on Post-Growth, behaviour change, hell, even spirituality, then the YouTube video can be found here.

At the end of the interview I play a song titled 'Antarctica' that was written by.....me and recorded with a fellow musician David Blair 13 years ago. It has since seen new life in the latest EP by my band Shock Octopus. It is a song about feeling stuck in the present but working toward a better future. I'm not sure if this is the best self-help advice but I felt it resonated with the conversation that Amrit and I shared in the interview.

As always, this podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia, and hats off to them for giving space to a podcast that explored the post-growth realm more broadly, from all different angles. Next episode P-GAP will be going back headfirst into population land by talking to American author and sustainable population advocate Karen Shragg.

In the meantime! If Amrit made you feel more optimistic about the world and your min/spirit, and you would like more of this, you be Inspired by more of his Evolution on the Inspired Evolution Website, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin. That should keep you going!

However, if that just isn't enough links for you, want to know my favourite Inspried Evolution interviewes? I am a massive fan of Charles Eisenstein so naturally I want you to click on this link. As I interviewed Darpan on PGAP you may be interested in his Inspired Evolution interview here. Lastly, I really love the interview with Koya Webb. I really vibe with her politics and the ide of Fierce Compassion!

Did you enjoy this episode? Hated it? Would have loved it if it weren’t for my annoying vocal ticks and choice of music? Make your thoughts public on Apple Podcast (or your favoured podcast listening medium). Your feedback and metadata help PGAP to GROW - the only thing we do want to see growing!

Special Guest: Amrit Sandhu.

Thirteen years ago, our then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said ‘Sorry’ on behalf of the nation to Australia’s Indigenous people. Since then, you could be forgiven for thinking whether any of this apology has sunk in with the various mining, road construction and other ‘business as usual’ industries that continue to plunder sacred lands that were never ceded. In Western Australia, Rio-Tinto blasted the Juukan Gorge caves – 46 000 years of human cultural significance gone in an instant with the help of some explosives. As I was recording this episode, I learnt that Mining giant BHP have recklessly harmed a Banjima sacred site in the Pilbara region in the same state. And don’t think this is a peculiarly Western Australia phenomena - I’ve just today passed Ararat in Victoria, near the sacred Djap Warrung birthing trees are under relentless threat by the state government to be removed in order to widen a road. This absurdity is straight out of the plot-line of a Douglas Adams novel.

In the eyes of the dominant neo-liberal culture, nothing is sacred from mining, fracking, road-widening, grazing, water theft – general exploitation. How could it be when Growth on a finite planet is the modus operandi and any other way of being or relating to the land is seen as anti-development, anti-progress, radical and dangerous? Hence – the ongoing and relentless displacement of First Nations people, culture and land, whether we are talking Brazil, West Papua, West China or, indeed, Western Australia.

I personally feel that the conversations around Post-Growth, Degrowth and even national population and migration policy are lacking First Nations’ perspectives, both in public discourse and in the literature. However, if you scratch under the surface, I believe there are voices to be heard on these issues. A couple of years ago, I ran a seminar at the Sustainable Living Festival for Sustainable Population Australia with Richie Allen, director of ‘Traditional Owners Aboriginal Corporation’, titled “Population: Indigenous and Environmental Perspectives”. Richie’s mother Violet ran for the Sustainable Australia Party in the ACT state elections, and it was through SAP connections that Prof. Anne Poelina and I met. It is also interesting that Lowitja O'Donoghue was once a trustee with SPA.

And so, Prof. Poelina and I happen to be united in our position to population and migration policy. I am sure that there is no united ‘First Nation’ perspective on population policy and I could bet that opinions on this topic are as diverse as the 360 language groups that comprised the original custodians of this continent pre-colonization. Yet if we are to ‘de-grow’ and ‘decolonise’, then taking time to listen to Indigenous wisdom, including love, respect and connection to land and water, is absolutely crucial. During the interview, Anne shares with us some insight into Indigenous ‘First Law’ as a way out of the anthropocentric, growthist quagmire we find ourselves in; towards a future of sustainability, stewardship and reconnection with each other, the land, water and life.

Following my interview with Anne, I play an excerpt of the musical tour-de-force which is "Yimardoowarra" from Nyikina Warrwa artist "Kalaji". Yimardoowarra means belonging to Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River - such a perfect soundtrack for this episode! You can listen to the entirety of the track on "Kalaji"s artist page here.

Want to find out more about Prof. Anne Poelina and the Martuwarra-Fitzroy River council? Anne has kindly provided some fantastic links below:

Martuwarra Fitzroy River Website: www.martuwarrafitzroy.org

Dr Anne Poelina “Wake Up The Snake! Collective wisdom brings nature back to balance | TEDxPerth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZmflOQarnM

RiverOfLife, M., McDuffie, M., & Poelina, A., (2020). Martuwarra Country: A historical perspective (1838-present). Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council; Nulungu Research Institute, The University of Notre Dame Australia. https://www.doi.org/10.32613/nrp/2020.5

RiverOfLife, M., Poelina, A., Alexandra, J., & Samnakay, N. (2020). A Conservation and Management Plan for the National Heritage listed Fitzroy River Catchment Estate (No. 1). Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council, Nulungu Research Institute, The University of Notre Dame Australia. https://www.doi.org/10.32613/nrp/2020.4

Poelina A and McDuffie M (2015) Three Sisters, Women of High Degree. Madjulla Inc., Broome. Available at https://vimeo.com/147866161 - Password: Kimberley.

Poelina A and McDuffie M (2017) Mardoowarra's Right to Life, Madjulla Inc., Broome, WA, Australia available at https://vimeo.com/205996720 access password: Kimberley.

Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible with the support from Sustainable Population Australia

Special Guest: Prof. Anne Poelina.

Meet Florence Blondel - Ugandan born journalist and all round game changer. I stumbled across her powerful article for Earth Overshoot day and couldn't help but to be incredibly moved. It had me thinking that there is so much debate in the global north around family planning based foreign aid for women and communities in the global south and yet the perspectives from women who live in the global south themselves are often lost in the noise. Florence is no less moving and inspiring in interview than she is in writing - cutting through the myths and misperceptions with stunning clarity, wisdom and through her direct experiences and anecdotes. You can find out more about Florence's great work here.

Meet Maxine Trump - director of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', virtually the first English language documentary to explore the decision whether or not to have children. Maxine points the lens at herself - literally and figuratively - as she juggles over the course of the feature length film the pros and cons of motherhood and opting, ultimately to be childfree. It has received rave reviews from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and having seen her film myself I can vouch for the unanimous praise! I chat with Maxine about her reflections following the making of the film as we anticipate the Australian premiere of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Australian cinemas in partnership with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign. A trailer for the film can be seen here and it will be released soon on Amazon Prime for those who are unable to make it to the Melbourne or Perth screenings.

Meet Tanya Williams - Brisbane based author of 'Childfree Happily Ever After'. Tanya shares with me her personal journey in her decision to be proudly childfree and her life mission to spread the word and normalise the choice to be childfree across the globe. She has released a new 'Childfree Magazine' this month - again, virtually a first of its kind. You can find out more about Tanya, her book and the new magazine here.

As mentioned, Sustainable Population Australia will be hosting private screenings of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Melbourne on the 26th of February and in Perth on the 27th of February in cooperation with Transition Town Guilford. According to Sandra Kanck, national president of SPA: "The aim of the campaign is to normalise the choice of having small or childfree families. As an environmental NGO, we advocate for smaller families as one solution towards reducing pressures on the Earth and support those who go down that path." SPA has produced a couple of short interview films here and here examining the issue with a range of people, including those who have decided to be childfree and those who have decided to have families. The screening of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', later this month, will be an excellent finale to our two year long project. A media release on the 'Stop at 2' campaign can be found here.

Interested in seeing Maxine's movie for yourself? Glad you asked! More information on the Melbourne screening can be found here. More information on the Perth screening can be found here. We are crossing our fingers for a third time lucky - we tried to screen the film twice last year and COVID lockdowns got the better of us! There has been some recently excitement in both Perth and Melbounre with hotel quarrantine scares so we are really hoping the dust will settle through to the end of February at least!

Given that many studies have demonstrated that having one less child is a more effective way to address personal emissions than a range of reductions in consumption or lifestyle choices, this is a necessary discussion to have for environmnetalists and the broader post-growth movement alike.

Time stamp:

00:00 - 07:45: Intro
07:46 - 46:35: Florence Blondel
46:36 - 01:04:42: Maxine Trump
01:04:43 - 01:20:53: Tanya Williams
01:20:54 - End: Outro

Special Guests: Florence Blondel, Maxine Trump, and Tanya Williams.

As a former property developer, Cameron provides the perfect insight as to what goes on behind closed doors in the property development industry, and how political favours, gained over time, leads to a culture of favouritism – a ‘Game of Mates’ if you please. Speaking of which, if you haven’t read the book of the same name, do so NOW. Cameron writes just like he speaks, which is to say engaging and fascinating – edutainment at its best. It also makes for great exposure therapy. I always knew the property industry was…let’s say a little skewed, but reading this book made me stimmy with rage on more than one occasion.

My discussion with Cameron was a great lesson for me in human psychology. I have often been frustrated why the community doesn’t rile against the property development industry more often – it is so rigged it is literally costing us billions of dollars a year and pricing out anyone out of the housing market who has the audacity to live on a five figure salary. But unlike the mining sector, which is full of eccentric Machiavellian villains, the property sector is conspicuously lacking (apart from the odd exception like Harry Triguboff). Generally speaking, property developers start of as well-meaning people who get caught up in a game of favouritism, wining and dining and rigging the system. Just like all of us do to some extent, they are simply looking out for their network of colleagues and friends, with a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance. Unlike the rest of us, however, this is done on a scale that undermines democracy, equity, housing affordability and wise town planning decision. The natural environment also goes down the gurgler. Individually, I learnt that property developers are often nice people. Collectively however, the culture has created a monster.

Cameron also discusses his views on population policy, modern monetary theory, his unique perspectives on capitalism and neo-liberalism, and his commitment towards critical thinking and avoiding 'isms', even when this has sometimes lead to controversy and heated debates.

I first met Cameron when filming his presentation "Economic Ageing Myths" at the forum hosted by Sustainable Population Australia in 2019. Since then, Sustainable Population has released a discussion paper on the ageing myth: "Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population." I am happy to share that the discssion paper has done very well since it launched in late October and has enjoyed good coverage in the print media.

This thirteenth episode is the final in the first season of Post Growth Australia Podcast – I am really proud of where PGAP has gone since I started it in July. In many ways it has exceeded most of my expectations and listener feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Thank you all for supporting and for listening – after all, if a podcast is broadcast and there is no-one to listen, did the pod actually get cast? That is the existential question that I don’t have to answer just yet as you have all taken to PGAP so kindly. I would like to give my thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this project – it would not have been possible without them being so willing to support a new project in good faith.

I am taking a couple of months away to hit the road – 8 months of lockdown was a great way to get many projects started but the computer screen has long passed its novelty. As such, this interview is a little ‘low frills’ - no intro, outro, no humouring my questionable taste in music. Just a pithy, largely unedited discussion with Cameron – which given Cameron is such a great speaker, I think I just got away with it. Don’t agree? Send me a review on Apple podcast. Agree? Send me a review on Apple podcast. Don’t care either way? Send a review expressing your completely neutrality on Apple podcast or the contact form on this page.

Otherwise, I look forward to a second season of pithy conversations on all things post-growth in the new year (assuming no total global apocalypse in the meantime – one can never be too certain).

"Corruption is criminal, immoral and the ultimate betrayal of public trust. It is even more damaging in times of crisis – as the world is experiencing now with the COVID-19 pandemic. The response to the virus is creating new opportunities to exploit weak oversight and inadequate transparency, diverting funds away from people in their hour of greatest need."

UN Secretary-General, António Guterres, Statement on corruption in the context of COVID-19

Special Guest: Dr Cameron Murray.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

So what needs to change and how to we facilitate this change? Do we rally against corporations, governments, capitalism and neoliberalism? Or do we need to stop changing the cruel churning world and work to shift our cruel churning minds caught in trauma, language, concepts and judgement? Can one even separate one without the other?

If my observations are correct, these distinctions have been crumbling in recent years. The political left are starting to realise that infighting over diminishing points of different has led to bitterness, resentment and burnout. Meanwhile not a lot has changed – the corporations still call the shots at the relentless expense of the natural world. Activists are looking for other ways. ‘Holistic Activism’, which advocates for collaboration, rather than conflict, is an example of one such movement.

Meanwhile, those in the ‘spirituality movement’ have started to become more politically engaged. (‘Spirituality’ being a - ha ha - broad church but for ease of reference I refer to those who engage in Taoism, Non-Duality, Shamanism and Neo-shamanism, Zen and Buddhism etc.) The response to COVID, particularly from the Victorian state government, has led to a new degree of activism within the community. Some of the same pitfalls that have befallen environmental activists, such as division and clashing over social media, have begun to emerge.

In this episode, I try to make a sense of recent events by talking to Darpan, a wise and incredibly experienced practitioner with decades of experience as a teacher, therapist, councillor, sound healer and facilitator of shamanic retreats. As an active person who has always struggled to sit still, I allow myself to be challenged on Darpan’s perspective that indeed, we CAN’T change the system without changing ourselves. Indeed, the universe is a vastly more complex place than our senses and minds can ever conceptualise - perhaps there is a astral world of spiritual events taking place whether our rationalistic brains like it or not.

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For those coming in to here from a system change angle, some of Darpan’s perspectives may be challenging. For those coming here who are fans of Darpan, you may find MY questions to him and my perspectives at the end of the interview uncomfortable. This need not be a bad thing – let this be a test of different perspective coming together to find common ground. If anything, this is the one thing that may get us out of the mess we’re in.

During the Podcast I refer to Alan Watts - the video almost broke me! and the documentaries Esteem, My Octopus Teacher, and Living in the Time of Dying. In my own bias this is essential viewing.

We are also graced by a stunning, beautiful meditative track from Melbourne artist Belinda Wickens entitled ‘She Comes’. Thank you so much for being part of this Podcast Belinda.

Special Guest: Darpan.

Anitra Nelson is an author, scholar and activist. She is passionate about the degrowth movement in addition to alternatives in restructuring the ways in which we live and relate to each other. Particularly, co-housing, shared living and localised economies and governance.

During this interview, we discuss two important books of wisdom that Anitra has delivered to the world. Anitra was just launching “Small Is Necessary: Shared Living on a Shared Planet” when we first met in early 2018.

At the time of this episode’s broadcast, Anitra has released “Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide” – a book that she has co-written with Vincent Liegey and has published through Pluto Press. Both excellent books are covered in the interview.

In addition, Anitra provides a very detailed and eloquent description of what life might look like in a degrowth world where localised governance and shared community living is the norm and not the exception.

Following the interview, I discuss some of my experiences and reflections on community shared living. I discuss the Retrosuburbia movement, linked here to find out more.
There are so many positives to shared living and we need to see more of this if we are to pull the breaks on bad urban planning outcomes that are shaping our cities and towns for the worse. However, shared living comes with many challenges that perhaps not all of us are ready or willing to jump into just yet.

Just as important (in my opinion) is to unite on a broader scale reform of the town planning system, so that housing can be built around the many different needs of the diverse people who live in our towns and cities. Not just for the growthist and profit driven mentality of property developers. As such, it is worth checking out movements that are challenging the ‘big picture’ such as Town Planning Rebellion.

Another pithy episode with much (locally grown?) food for thought!

Special Guest: Anitra Nelson.

You may remember Derrick Jensen from such best-selling books as Endgame and The Culture of Make Believe. Or you may be aware of him as the co-founder of Deep Green Resistance radical environmental group. Derrick is hailed as the philosopher poet of the ecological movement. He pulls no punches when it comes to being a champion of the natural world, pointing the finger of scrutiny at the modern human capitalist experiment and reminding us that yes, limits to growth are DEFINITELY real. In other words, he fits in just perfectly with Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP).

I can't say we keep things shallow during the interview. Derrick goes down the rabbit hole with me as he dissects capitalism, the psychology that creates an expansionist, destructive mind-set, the trauma that is inflicted on both human and human animals as a result of a civilization built around competition and domination and, not least, the role that (non patriarchal/monotheist) spirituality plays in reconnecting us back into the awe and one-ness with nature. Although the interview is slightly longer than some other episodes, I feel I barely brushed the surface with Derrick and can't wait to have him back for 'round two pithy conversation’ soon!

Before the interview host Michael Bayliss provides a ruefully amusing anecdote of trying to explain Earth Overshoot Day to the mainstream news media last year. I honestly thought I was buttering up our predicament for the interviewers in the best way that I could, but they still felt I was being too pessimistic when I tried to explain that the work to be done involved more than just recycling. I had almost forgotten the cognitive blind spot that is mainstream news!

To cap it off, we play the brand new track ‘Ice’ from 'Counting Backwards' . It is a track about modern life malaise in the suburbs. Take this lyric below which links in nicely to some of the conversation had with Derrick Jensen:

"People don’t know how to be happy in the sprawl. It's a monochrome world she says. Flanked by urban malls."

Stick around for episode six when I interview Robert Wanalo from Post Growth Institute. In the meantime, you may be interested in the Earth Overshoot Day media release freshly released by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).

Special Guest: Derrick Jensen.

The 2020s is the decade of consequence from centuries of anthropocentrism. The ‘Anthropocene’ has seen the numbers of human and ‘livestock’ animals balloon at the expense of every single other ‘wild’ species on the planet. Nature is biting back. In Australia, after reeling from the devastating impact of the bushfires, Melbourne has been plunged into six weeks (at least) of stage 4 lockdown. We are also looking towards a future of contraction and recession. Our politicians and business ‘leaders’ are only too keen to return to business as usual - as soon as possible. Dr Michelle Maloney has other ideas…

Michelle is the co-founder of Australian Earth Laws Alliance (AELA) and director of the New Economy Network Australia (NENA). For the past decade, Michelle has dedicated her life to bringing people and community together to revision a better world in which humans live, work and play in a way that regenerates the environment instead of taking away from it. From anthropocentricism to ecocentrism, if you please.

Michelle shares with host Michael Bayliss the excellent and essential work being done by the volunteer run AELA and NENA, bringing the realms of law and economics back into nature where it belongs. She describes what kind of world we might live in if we can change out mind sets by putting our beautiful local ecosystems back into forefront.

Michael also plays ‘Life on a Pier’ from his own band ‘Shock Octopus’. The track is an epic song about climate grief, an orchestrated eulogy for these difficult but fascinating times. The song is currently enjoying a month of national wide promotion, so we thought its inclusion here is timely!

We hope you enjoy the 04th episode of PGAP.

Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.

Dave Gardner speaks with Michael about World Population Balance's excellent campaigns during 2020 that encourage and empower people to choose smaller families. Also discussed was the launch of the World OVERpopulation Day website, GrowthBusters and Dave's great work on The Overpopulation Podcast.

João Abegão discusses the background behind the making of the Overpopulation Atlas - this is perhaps one of the most spectacular and dedicated post-grad projects ever! As one of the youngest advocates for population sustainability on, João has also addressed the UN as part of a panel discussion on population at the COP25 in Madrid. 2019., which is very impressive.

In between interviews, we play a live performance of 'Let's Hang Out' from comedian, musician and thought provoker Jude Perl. Jude performed live as part of SPA's Tough Crowd series with Australian comedian and national treasure Rod Quantock (see here). The song's clever message is very relevant to world population day - it will all make sense by the chorus!

Special Guests: Dave Gardner and João Abegão.