The interview with Matthew Washington can be heard HERE. Many thanks to Matthew for your thoughtful written responses to each of the interview questions below, for further context and explanation.
Q1: Matthew, tell us a little about yourself, including your passions and what drives you, as well as any family legacy you bring to your work and advocacy (i.e. with reference to the work and legacy of Haydn Washington in his work with Environment and CASSE).
I hold a MA hons from Sydney University in Philosophy and a Masters of Taxation from the University of NSW. My philosophical interest areas were in social philosophy, epistemology and the Philosophy of Science. I specialised in International tax issues for my Masters of Taxation at UNSW.
I became involved in CASSE (e.g. Centre for Advance of the Steady State Economy ) NSW in 2014, first as its Treasurer and Secretary and later as one of its Co-Directors. I organised many Webinars and Seminars for CASSE NSW Inc. Throughout my life I have been actively engaged in numerous conservation related groups, and campaigns. Haydn, my brother was a dedicated conservation activist and environmental scientist. While he taught at UNSW Haydn became involved in CASSE NSW Inc in 2013. His legacy both for the conservation movement and his work with CASSE NSW Inc was outstanding.
Q2: Why is infinite growth on a finite planet a core issue for you and for CASSE and why won’t the Green New Deal (alone) save us?
When the “Limits to Growth” report was issued by the Club of Rome (1972) it attracted a lot of criticism. It was shortly after this report was issued that Herman Daly (in 1973), edited the book “Toward a Steady State Economy”. It was :
“ a collection of papers written by influential contributors including Georgescu-Roegen on entropy and economics, Paul Ehrlich and John Holdren on population growth, Kenneth Boulding on the economics of spaceship Earth, Garret Hardin on the tragedy of the commons, E.F. Schumacher on Buddhist economics, John Cobb Jr. on ecology, ethics and theology, as well as two papers by himself.”
(Victor, Peter A.. Herman Daly’s Economics for a Full World: His Life and Ideas (p. 36). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.)
So, a number of notable academics spoke out to support the Club of Rome’s findings. It was the heterodox economists Herman Daly and Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, who developed a detailed critique of NCE, and Neoliberal ideology. This critique has become increasingly relevant as our earth is undergoing the “Overshoot of Planetary boundaries”
(Effects on Ecological Planetary boundaries, described by the Stockholm Resilience Centre in 2022).
We now know we have transgressed the safe operating space in six of the nine main categories of environmental impacts.
Further, the growth of inequality and social turmoil are concomitant social developments also integral to this negative pathway that Neoclassical economics (NCE) and Neoliberal ideology have set us upon. For all these reasons Herman Daly has been an important early voice critical of NCE and to its dangerous blindness which it encourages us to embrace.
A SSE sketches a radically different economic trajectory for our society and outlines a policy framework to restructure our relationship to the biosphere.
Lastly, as regards the Green New deal (as promoted in the USA) , it largely overlooks many aspects of the perilous position we now face. It ignores the problem of unrestrained population growth. It takes care not to say too much against unrestrained population growth, presumably since the USA historically is a nation of migrants.
It even suggests the ‘green new deal’ will assist the economy to continue to grow! Hence, the Green New Deal is deeply flawed. It veils its greatest flaw, a “business as usual” approach, within its apparent claims of major reforms. It is tainted, since it continues to promote a “business as usual”, while not addressing sufficiently the challenge of unrestrained population growth and other other dystopian threats like environmental degradation and pollution of air sea and rivers.
Q3: I had always predicted that with limits to growth and as societies collapse, the billionaire oligarchs would transition us from neoliberalism to direct fascism, and we are seeing this play out rapidly in the USA. We are also living in a post-truth era, with so many people turning to the ‘mirror world’ as succinctly depicted in Naomi Klein’s ‘Doppelganer’, which replaces real issues with conspiracy theories. What is your take on the current cultural zeitgeist?
I do not subscribe to a view which sees humanity as largely locked into a passive role as “consumer”, rather than a citizen capable of participating in debates and able to adopt moral positions on important social issues. Of course, we need a healthy society to foster the kind of milieu to sustain such states of affairs. While Daly, does not discuss his political views directly, his analysis assumes countries can have democratically identified policies and may have traditions that aim for the “common good”. Clearly some powerful interest groups often seek to influence public discourse for their narrow ends. This is not a new phenomena. But, I do not believe the pervasive effects of some social media, on some sections of our society, means we have been pushed into a “post truth era”. Were this literally the case; then it appears there is little chance of remedy and all may be lost. But, ideas and social attitudes are not static (nor is this desirable). The complex elements that make up our human created social world (culture and social mores) can change and turmoil is not new. The dangers of some social media influencers are real, but ideally, as society evolves and responds to malevolent sources of dis-information from some social media sources, we hope and expect that, in such a contested space of ideas and social movements, that our public discourse can reflect the better aspects of human nature. This will be up to us.
Daly in his book “For the Common Good” sketches two views of the economy, as originally identified by Aristotle. These are ‘Oikonomia’ (from which we get ‘economy’ and ‘economics’) and “Chrematistics”. Daly defines Chematistics as branch of political economy which sees value in the manipulation of property and wealth for short term gain. Whereas, Oikonomia is the management of the household “so as to increase its use value for all members of that household over the long term”.
These notions identify different approaches to the manner in which an economy can be structured and/or restructured. (See Chap 7 page 138, “For the Common Good, redirecting the economy toward community the environment and a sustainable future”).
Daly is a macroeconomist. He sets out to describe how the economy can be better structured and he appreciates how humanity can aim for ‘Oikonomia’ rather than a Chematistic economy that is essentially divided against itself.
Daly’s decries the short-term selfish grab for more and more outlined in Chrematistics (which he describes as akin to Wall St traders) where the greater good of the community is disregarded.
Hence, Daly’s political orientation is not hidden. But he embraces a view that envisages we can reorientate the aims and purposes of the economy. In more recent times, others have advocated moving to a “well being economy”. I suggest Daly was ‘out there’ raising this kind of possibility, on how to re-focus and restructure our economy in 1994.
“Personally” I don’t think we will slide fully into fascism. That is, I do not see this as inevitable, despite worrying trends in some nation/societies. I note there are resilient institutions and communities who (I believe) would oppose such a transformation. There are frameworks of ideas, social mores and embedded ‘ways of being’ . These are bound up within many communities and contain expectations about equality before the law, and notions of justice and caring for both the human and non-human world. The real question would seem to be ‘is the broader populace so disgruntled and alienated that fascism becomes some kind of answer to their plight’
I observe the Australian, Canadian and European responses to Trump’s antics and his continual stoking of division, by which he aims to white-ant and undermine more liberal (small “l”) traditions, has caused a backlash. In this regard I suggest these nations have expectations and beliefs (ways of thinking and acting) about the rule of law and other traditions that support a respect for others and our shared biosphere. These nations have not abandoned hope in the possibilities of on-going reform of our economy and society. Currently also this is not a forlorn hope within the Australian public’s psyche.
Q4: Give us an overview of the objectives and policies of CASSE. I do wonder, as an adjunct to this question, your views of whether the political and social directions that CASSE proposes could be used as a viable alternative to everyday people to rally behind, which would actually address the root causes impact their quality of their lives, without having to go down the rabbit hole of the mirror world or extreme right fascism, often out of desperation.
To preface remarks on CASSE NSW objectives and policies, I quote J.S Mill (a classical economist) who influenced Daly. Mill saw said to achieve such a large scale transition to a SSE would need:
"to be initiated by a cultural, spiritual, and political value shift towards simplicity, sufficiency, sharing, community, and a deep respect for the natural world"
For such a transition ‘root and branch changes’ are required. Daly’s ideas in summary are (I use James Magnus-Johnston, an ecological economist, remarks”):
A Steady State Economy is a dynamic market economy that efficiently allocates goods and services but uses the lowest feasible rates of natural capital depletion to achieve a high quality of life. A SSE features:
• A sustainable population size for the carrying capacity of its region,
• A distribution of wealth which is fair and equitable on an intergenerational basis _
• _Low resource use (_both renewable and non-renewable resource_s)
_ The term may apply to a city, region, nation, or to a global economy that fits within the carrying capacity of the planet’s biosphere. It was Herman Daly & Joshua Farley (2004) who summarized the three objectives of an SSE as:
- Optimal scale
- fair distribution and,
- efficient allocation, in that order
There may be some difficulty to put what “this vision” means into catchy three word slogans or into a succinct set of doctrines. Herman Daly is NOT outlining a political platform. He is providing a blue print for the kind of changes that will set up the conditions for a SSE to be workable. They are radical changes that he suggests are needed to transition to a sustainable economy that can function within natures bounds. He advocated fair distribution of income and intergenerational equity as a guiding goals.
The kind of society, its belief systems about maintaining greater equality (in supporting fair and equitable distribution) will also need our political will and our moral courage to establish it. Herman Daly essay in ‘the Limits to growth report’ of 1972 noted: “The stationary state ( he later called it a SSE ) would make fewer demands on our environmental resources, but much greater demands on our moral resources” (Victor, Peter A.. Herman Daly’s Economics for a Full World: His Life and Ideas (p. 176). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.)
Daly’s three basic elements for change map important steps to begin to establish a transition to a SSE. These are part of a coherent vision that sets out the parameters needed to begin to forge such a transition.
The study of political economy shows us just how economics is an essential element in our debates on how we see ourselves and how we can (and or should) organise ourselves to attain our valued goals. It should be noted that economics is a descriptive theory about what we do and how we go about it, but it does not set out to give us our convictions on why we do it. These matters, debates and moral considerations are up to us!
But to assist peoples understanding of what is needed, we have 10 detailed policy points (from Daly’s 2015 Blue Planet Lecture) which have been recently revised and updated by Phil Lawn, a leading Australian ecological economist. These will soon be put on our Website at : https://www.casse-nsw.org.au/ . So these policy points may help to focus political interest on the need for radical change towards embracing a SSE.
I guess one could use this quote to generate interest in a SSE. Daly said:
“The economy should not be viewed as an idiot machine dedicated to maximizing waste. Its ultimate purpose is the maintenance and enjoyment of life for a long time (not forever) at a sufficient level of wealth for a good (not luxurious) life.”
Q5: In a recent article by The New Statesman, Denmark has shown it can defeat the populist right by virtue of Mette Frederiksen’s Social Democrats tackling the immigration debate in a constructive and mature way. Tell us how CASSE incorporates population into its policies why Degrowth can’t ignore population, and why the Left need to rethink how to tackle the immigration debate.
It may seem trite to mention the first of Daly’s fundamental tenets required as a blue print ( parameters to change the existing paradigm) to transition our society and its economy toward a SSE, is a radical proposal :
- A sustainable population size for the carrying capacity of its region.
Not a simple question to establish - “carrying capacity”
I have heard ecologists say the ‘carrying capacity’ of population in Australia is somewhere around 4 million. A former Public servant, Mr Ken Henry recalled his discussion with PM Bob Hawk. Hawke asked Henry “what he thought the ideal population of Australia should be?”. Henry replied “15 million”, but Hawke commented, “that’s what I thought** 50 mill** ! ”. But Henry said “No, No! I said 15 Million!”.
Clearly there are different perspectives available on this matter. Degrowth advocates who avoid addressing this issue properly are abrogating their responsibility to face this issue squarely. We need to look carefully to establish what would be truly a sustainable population. The question must be answered by those with the requisite expertise.
CASSE NSW Inc, I believe, would support the arguments and research conducted by SPA. But I note there are a number of different figures actually provided on SPA own website:
“Specific estimates of a sustainable level of population for Australia include the Australian Academy of Science, which in 1995 advocated stabilising the population at around 23 million.[4] A more recent study of Australia’s carrying capacity by Dr Murray Lane at Queensland University of Technology estimated that it ranges between 9 million and 40 million people, depending on what time scale was assumed. If long term sustainability were the aim, then the study found carrying capacity would need to be towards the lower end (9 million).[5]"
I believe CASSE NSW Inc would gravitate towards “long term carrying capacity”. So, the “ultimate carrying capacity” is a matter for constant and careful research and is likely to be subject to review in the light of new and emerging considerations.
Given the other aims of a SSE, to move toward sufficiency and reduce “over productions” and “over consumption”, while creating jobs in sustainable industries and agriculture, I suspect the lower range of population for Australia (i.e. 9 mill ) would be the more realistic figure for a SSE to target as a policy goal. But this is my personal comment on this matter. It is not a formal position of CASSE NSW Inc. A change to a smaller population would need be achieved incrementally and justly and not overnight by Draconian measures.
Q6: Sustainable Population Australia, who support PGAP, interviewed the secretary/treasurer Phil Jones from CASSE NSW Inc. in the November 2024 edition of the SPA Newsletter. Phil provided a very informative insight in CASSE NSW and its recent projects and campaigns. I will provide a link in the show notes, but please provide us your own summary of CASSE NSW, your role in the organisation, and some recent highlight.
Broadly my role as a CASSE NSW Inc co-director is :
“to advance the Steady State Economy, with stabilized population and consumption, as a policy goal and a concomitant aim of greater well-being and social equity with widespread public support.
I use my role to pursue this mission by:
• educating citizens, organizations, and policy makers on the conflict between economic growth and
(1) environmental protection
(2) ecological and economic sustainability, and
(3) national security and international stability;
• promoting the steady state economy as a desirable alternative to economic growth;
• studying and advancing the means to establish a steady state economy and what this may entail.”
To this end I am engaged in organizing a range of Webinars and I have attended and presented brief papers dealing with issues relating to establishing a SSE. One was at the Anzsee conference in Melbourne in 2019, and I also have presented several papers at successive NENA conferences.
Originally, I was the Treasurer and Secretary of CASSE NSW. In late 2019 I became a Co-director as Haydn involvement decreased due to illness.
I research evaluate, (vet) and distribute articles and recomment books of interest to our members. Our constitution allows decision making and the countenance of views within our membership via email communications. Such arrangements allow policies and decisions to be canvassed and developed between our formal quarterly meetings, when needed. I publish suitable materials from various sources (some from CASSE in the USA ) relevant to issues on sustainability and the SSE, which I share and I put on our CASSE NSW Inc website.
Current project - Submission to the Federal Productivity Commission.
We recently wrote and made a Submission to the Australian Federal Productivity Commission regarding the proper goals and strategies to be used in the adoption of a Circular Economy approach for Australian industry and agriculture. Central to our submission was the advocating the goal, of this shift to circularity in our economic processes, be an integral part of a root and branch shift to a SSE.
We continue to work on this project and I am contacting overseas academics with experience and expertise related to the challenges and strategies necessary to establish a circular economy in Europe.
Q7:What are some upcoming plans for CASSE NSW Inc or for yourself? How can people living in New South Wales get more involved with the NSW chapter?
As noted above we are continuing to promote our petition to Federal Parliament and working on helping to (hopefully) shape some to the policies to be adopted by Government as adopt strategies directed towards embracing a move to a Circular Economy.
Other information CASSE NSW Inc’s work, can obtainable through :
Contact us via Email : [email protected]
Visit our Website at : https://www.casse-nsw.org.au/
We invite interested people to join CASSE NSW Inc. We welcome interested parties and invite them to get involved and contribute their ideas and enthusiasm to help educate the public and ‘decision makers’ about the value of a transition to a Steady State Economy. Our Website contains a lot of useful material (copies of papers, books, blogs and videos), current news, related ideas and strategies relevant to help shape a constructive dialogue in support the important transition to a SSE.