Scott Witheridge is an Environmental Engineer and Author of the book "The Post Fossil Fuel Era". The book is a deep investigation into the next frontier of energy—exploring decentralised power, hydrogen innovation, and the intersection of conventional and emerging technologies. In this interview, Scott discusses the possibilities of abundant, perpetual and non-conventional energy.

All views, opinions and legacies of guests on Post Growth Australia Podcast are exclusively theirs and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of PGAP. This is especially true for this episode as host Michael Bayliss remains cautiously neutral on this issue. From a post-growth perspective, the idea of abundant energy offers a fascinating hypothetical. If abundant energy is possible, how does this challenge our notion of energy scarcity and our response to this (such as planned degrowth and voluntary simplicity)? On the other side of the coin, does abundant energy give humanity a free pass to continue expanding unchecked and do post-growth principles still apply? All this and more are explored under the hypothetical microscope in this special episode of PGAP.

“THE POST FOSSIL-FUEL ERA: A Blueprint for a Boundless Future” is available for purchase on Amazon HERE.

You can check out Scott’s videos, including the full length “The Story of the Joe Cell” documentary, on the Post Fossil Fuel Era YouTube channel HERE.

If you would like to hear host Michael Bayliss’ most recent interview on Pulse, representing Sustainable Population Australia, link HERE (go to the third chapter starting at 2:00:00).

If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your networks. We encourage you to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. CONTACT US with your thoughts and suggestions for future episodes and guests.

Special Guest: Scott Witheridge.

Welcome to 2026 and a brand-new season of Post Growth Australia Podcast!

With co-host Mark Allen on travel leave, host Michael Bayliss (with his degrowth cap on) opens the episode with some mixed feelings in welcoming the new year. Since 2025, humanity has breached planetary boundaries, shifted more of our collective wealth into the hands of oligarchs and added 70 million to the population. Each new year brings a new appreciation of the magnitude to the scale of the human enterprise, which makes turning things around that more difficult (we keep trying, however!)

Our first special guest to open Season 8 of PGAP is Marcus Champ. With a professional background in psychology, Marcus is studying at the one-of-a-kind Masters of Economics of Sustainability degree through Torrens University. Along with fellow students, Marcus has started an economics advocacy group called “Public Money. Public Good.”

Marcus was also a presenter at the 2025 New Economy Network Australia (NENA) conference. His presentation was titled: “Pathways through a crisis: wartime experience and lessons for the coming climate catastrophe.”

In this episode, Marcus draws from his presentation to compare Australia’s economy during World War II to that of our economic system today. In his words: “It’s amazing how much our understanding of economics and finance has changed in the last 50 years or so.”

With panache and passion, Marcus shares a new economic vision for Australia. Informed from the achievements of the past, it eschews the current neoliberal paradigm to create a future where social and environmental wellbeing is prioritised over GDP, profits for the few and endless growth on a finite planet.

Post Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP) is made possible with the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). All opinions and legacy of PGAP guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Enjoyed this episode? Please feel welcome to show your support for PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your friends, family and networks. Leave a review for us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. Contact us anytime with your thoughts and suggestions. Want to explore more episodes on this theme? Links below:

Finding The Money with Maren Poitras
PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism
MMT for Activism with Gabrielle Bond
Ecological Economies and MMT with Steve Williams

Time stamp:

Intro - 00:06:20
Interview part 1 - 00:06:20 - 00:27:20
Intermission - 00:27:20 - 00:29:05
Interview part 2 - 00:29:05 - 01:00:55

Special Guest: Marcus Champ.

In addition to his leadership at ECO, Isaac has represented Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) at each international COP talk since 2012, playing a key role in shaping discussions on how the Global South and Global North can collaborate to address population related issues. A committed advocate for Degrowth and Ecological Sustainability, Isaac’s insights are a vital contribution to the post-growth movement.

Isaac speaking on a panel at a recent COP

As we are all aware, population sustainability remains a contentious issue. However, it is too often that the voices of experts from Global South communities remain unconsulted. In this episode, PGAP asks Isaac several pertinent questions relevant to the population debate, including:

"As a Ugandan citizen, how would you reassure the international community that it is a good thing that organisations within Australia and Uganda work together to address overpopulation in Uganda and other countries in the Global South?"

While Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) campaigns strongly on the domestic population issues facing Australia, less is known about the organisation’s commitment to the global stage. We hope this episode will be an inspiration on global partnerships in response to delivering on basic human rights such as access to family planning and reproductive healthcare.

Issac was interviwed for the SPA February 2025 Newsletter, which can be downloaded here.

Isaac Kabongo representing SPA at a COP exhibition stall, photographed with fellow exhibitors.

For more PGAP episodes that explore Global South perspectives on population, we recommend our interviews with Women for Conversation (Colombia) and Florence Blondel (who is also from Uganda).

Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Also, feel welcome to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast, subscribe to PGAP, or contact us with your feedback.

During this episode, we play the latest single from new West Australian band ‘Mobile Zebra’.

You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen here and here.

Special Guest: Isaac Kabongo.

(This episode is in memory of Dr John Coulter)

John remained an executive member of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) until the end of his life. Through SPA, he fearlessly challenged mainstream media for neglecting critical issues such as overpopulation and the limits to growth.

In 2021, PGAP had the privilege of interviewing John at his home in the Adelaide Hills. Unfortunately, a bushfire had swept through the property a few months earlier, leaving much of the land scarred. Walking through the devastated bushland was a sobering experience and a stark reminder of the profound changes occurring as society’s growth experiment entered the "decade of consequence."

This interview was originally broadcast in 2021 as part of the episode World Population Day 2021. For this memorial episode, we are re-releasing that conversation, as John’s thoughts, perspectives, and reflections resonate even more powerfully in retrospect. Co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their reflections on the interview and John’s legacy, particularly his pioneering work in the early 1970s for the broader post-growth movement.

(The 1971 Newspaper open letter)

A heartfelt tribute to John Coulter was penned by Dr Bob Brown:

"I was sad to hear of John Coulter’s death, but that sadness was quickly replaced by a celebration of John’s remarkable, life-long advocacy for the environment. In his time as the Democrats’ spokesperson, he was the major Australian political voice for protecting this nation’s wildlife, wild regions, and oceans, as well as promoting greener living for us all. He was a gentleman but unswerving in his devotion to life on Earth. South Australia and the nation are indebted to John for a long, caring, and actively eco-saving career."

One of John’s final articles, "The Guiding Criminal Lie in Economics", was published in Pearls and Irritations in 2024. A moving tribute in the same publication, "Vale Dr. John Coulter", was written by former SPA President Jenny Goldie. In April 2024, John was invited to become a Patron of SPA—a role that he very much cherished during the brief months before his passing.

The Post-Growth Australia Podcast will take a short break over the festive season before returning to Season Seven in January. In the meantime, we warmly encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, and networks.

You can rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and we welcome your feedback, thoughts, and suggestions for future episodes. You can contact us HERE. Remember, podcasts are rapidly becoming a key medium for mass communication and influence in the modern age. It is vital that we work together to ensure the message of Degrowth reaches a wide audience.

To learn more about your PGAP co-hosts and their broader work, visit the respective websites for Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss.

PGAP is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia.

Special Guest: John Coulter.

Our ‘manifesto’ on the population debate can be read on the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.”

Mark’s article “A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue” was published in MEDIUM and the Sustainable Population Australia newsletter May 2024 edition. Want to find out more about Holistic Activism? The booklet can be Downloaded HERE, or accessed at the Holistic Activism website.

Michael’s article “Population growth and wealth inequality are more entwined than we thought: here’s why” was originally published on the Population Media Center blog. An audio summary of the themes may be listened to at the ‘Rethinking Sustainability’ podcast, to which Michael was a guest for the short episode: “Growth and the Parasitic Economy”.

We believe that population sustainability is one essential component of transitioning to a post-growth society and we trust that this episode and our written contributions make for convincing arguments.

Kelvin Thomson, former Australian Federal MP and a huge influence on the population sustainability movement, has released an EP of original music. The track ‘Break Away’, that ends this episode, may be watched on YouTube here.

Sustainable Population Australia has launched a media release for World Population Day: “A population may survive but not thrive if it grows rapidly”. We have been told that this has had some positive response from the media, including interviews with SPA’s national president on mainstream radio.

You can add your name to SPA’s position statement HERE (already at 15,000 signatures) or find out more about how you can make a difference HERE. SPA’s contributions to the population debate are also discussed in this episode.

You can rate and review PGAP at Apple Podcast HERE. Feel free to contact us HERE with your feedback and suggestions, including ideas for future episodes.

Please consider signing SPA's position statement, calling for a sustainable population. Find out more about the campaign here.

Will you be in Adelaide on the 20th of April? Then do come along to SPA's free public forum on Australia's Ponzi population experiment - and what we can do about it. For those not in Adelaide, the event will be live streamed. PGAP has interviewed both keynote speakers, including Leith van Onselen from Macrobusiness, and Jane O'Sullivan, in past episodes. Martin Tye was also interviewed in the very first episode of PGAP. Listen here for a walk down history lane!

SPA are the primary supporters of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). While this podcast aims to invite broad perspectives on the Degrowth movement, we believe that a stable or slowly declining populations, both domestically and globally, are crucial components of the post-growth transition. If you want to find out more about where your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen sit on population, you can read more HERE and HERE. All opinions, views and past and current legacies of our guests are strictly their own, and do not always reflect the views of PGAP.

PGAP have one last episode in the wings with a VERY special guest (no spoilers!) before we take a short break. Stay tuned! In the meantime, please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Subscribe to PGAP HERE or contact us with your thoughts and ideas HERE.

Special Guest: Martin Tye.

PGAP would like to give a shout out to Paul Winter, who is not only on the program advisory board at PMC, but is also a Grammy winning saxophonist, whose music is inspired by the cultures and creatures of planet Earth. He kindly shared the track ‘Talkabout’ for this episode of PGAP, which we played an extract from after Bill’s interview.

We would also like to give a shout-out to Cody Peluso, Digital Advocacy & Mobilization Manager at PMC, without whom this episode would not have been possible. PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss interviewed Cody for a recent edition of the Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) newsletter. SPA kindly supports PGAP and we encourage you to consider giving SPA a donation for their end of financial year donation appeal.

PMC kindly provided an excerpt from the Hulu series ‘East Los High’, courtesy of Hulu, that we played at the start of this episode. A trailer for the series can be viewed on YouTube here.

We hope you will join PMC in celebrating their 25th anniversary. There are many events lined up, including their Zoom birthday party, held on Zoom on the 15th of June, which you can RSVP here. Unfortunately for Australian listeners, this is well after midnight for us so perhaps one for the night owls. Otherwise you can keep track of PMC's activities on their website here.

Otherwise, please check out PMC’s award winning podcast, Crossing the Line. Excellent stuff.

While PMC celebrate their 25th anniversary, PGAP will be taking a very short break. This is the last episode of season 4 of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We made some changes to the format of this podcast, including welcoming co-host Mark Allen. The experiment has worked in our favour, with record number of listens in April and May. While our PGAP community continues to build, we strongly encourage our listeners to reach out and contact us with your feedback, suggestions and thoughts while we are on break. What were the episodes you loved, or not so much? What guests or topics would you like to see in season 5? We would love to hear from you, so don’t be shy in hitting the contact button.

All opinions of PGAP guests, including any past, present and future legacies, are exclusively their own and may not always reflect the views and objectives of Post-Growth Australia Podcast or Sustainable Population Australia. CLICK HERE to find out more about Sustainable Population Australia. You can find out more about the work of co-hosts Michael Bayliss HERE or Mark Allen HERE.

We look forward to gracing the airwaves in a month or two. Until then folks, until then!

Special Guest: Bill Ryerson.

It is not a secret to anyone now that Australia is going through a housing emergency. With Australia one of the most unaffordable countries in the world and with many of us in severe housing stress, this reality is very tangible. As housing stress is reaching its peak, our federal government is committing to one of the largest population growth policies in recent decades. The ‘official’ stance is that the housing crisis is a supply based issue – just keep building more! There has been very little written on the ‘demand’ side of the housing equation. Michael found himself one of the few who were brave or foolhardy enough to tackle this issue alongside co-author Dr. Jane O’Sullivan, with whom Sustainable Population Australia commissioned to write the report ‘The Housing Crisis is a Population Growth Crisis.’ For this episode, Mark interviews Michael on the story behind the report and some of its key findings.

(Boomer and the Doomer artwork by Mathisha Wahikala, Mick Thompson and Mark Allen).

The housing emergency is just another in long line of emergencies – take your pick! Climate change, boiling oceans, ecological collapse, resource depletion and other fun things. It can be hard to maintain a poker face through this incessant din of human induced calamities, let alone find time to laugh. Michael interviews Mark’s recent experiences in combining political satire with stand- up comedy in his debut show at the Adelaide fringe with comedian Eric Tinker. Combined, they performed the duo show ‘The Boomer and The Doomer’ across three sold out nights in March. We muse on bringing humour into Degrowth conversations, which has been one of PGAP’s key objectives since day one. Eric Tinker's 'MC Boomer rap' can be viewed here on YouTube.

(Ice cover artwork by Robert Smith and Mark Allen).

We also take time in the episode to play a some choice tracks, 'Ice' and 'A Deer Caught In The Highlights' from Mark and Michael's respective music projects, 'Counting Backwards' and 'Shock Octopus'.

PGAP will soon be winding down for a short break between our fourth and fifth seasons. This is a perfect time to contact PGAP to let us know your feedback and what themes or guests you would like us to explore next time around. Our recent upswing in downloads continues - be part of this movement! Share this and other episodes to your family, friends and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite platform.

A big thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this podcast. You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen at their websites.

Episode time stamp:

0:00:00 - 0:03:09 Introduction
0:03:00 - 0:05:07 'Ice' by Counting Backwards
0:05:08 - 0:38:05 Housing Crisis? What Housing Crisis!
0:38:06 - 0:42:10 'A Deer Caught In The Headlights' by Shock Octopus
0:42:11 - End The Boomer and the Doomer + Outro

Mark referred to several articles during this show. These include:
"Threat to Albanese Government" - Crispin Hull
"Millions living on city fringes at higher risk of climate disasters as federal government warned of 'national crisis" - ABC
"There is a perfect storm brewing for the housing market and it could make buying your own home a pipedream" - ABC

Mark's article for Independent Australia, "Why the housing crisis is here to stay" can now be read here. A second article, "Economic reform vital to solving housing crisis", has also been published by IA.

This first episode of the season is the culmination of a personal journey for them both. For Michael it is an opportunity to share his lived experiences in the West Australia rental market (in what has been labelled as the asbestos capital of the world) - that is too broken to care about whether the basic health and safety needs of renters are being met. Mark who shared in some of those experiences, goes on to look at how it all fits into a wider discussion on the systemic changes that are so urgently required in our town planning and housing sectors.

These experiences have also been written down in the form of a blog: “A Year in Asbestosville: A Farcical Tale of Systemic Failure.” This can be read on the PGAP blog or at Michael’s author profile on Medium. You are spoiled for choice!

In addition to our personal journeys, we also discuss some Degrowth related current affairs. For example…

Did you know that November 15th is the date that our global population will reach 8 billion people. Yay! But what does 8 billion mean for the planet, the environment and for you? Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast, are inviting you to answer this very question in 100 words (or less!) for your chance to win a prize. A link can be found to the competition here. The competition is open to all Australian residents who are not currently members of SPA and it is open until November 11th.

Also, how could we not talk about Liz Truss on a program about Degrowth? Before her six weeks as PM was over, Truss bemoaned the supposed anti-growth coalition. So, a growing number of people thought that this was a great idea and started one up. Mark is currently in conversation with the coalition about how best to frame the population issue in a way that prevents it from becoming overly divisive. Want to find out more? You can visit their website here.

(image found through internet image search).

Finally, we would like to give a nod to Dr. Alex Baumann, who has just released a YouTube video, “The Land Issue | A Social Science Sustainability Breakthrough". Our season 3 interview with Alex, ‘A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth’ has become PGAP’s highest performing ever episode. Hopefully this will help bring the importance of public housing and its role in our transition to degrowth, further into public consciousness.

Perhaps we are making a difference because this year, PGAP nudged into the top 6% of global podcasts! With your help, we can get PGAP into the top 5% of listens, which we would like to think is where it belongs. You can do your bit by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcasts so that others may be inspired to give us a go. Let’s help to build a movement of movements 😊.

You can find out more about Mark, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here
You can find out more about Michael at his website here

Karen Shragg is a lifelong environmentalist, naturalist, educator, poet, author and overpopulation activist based in the USA. Her book ‘Move Upstream, A Call for Overpopulation’ was published in 2015. Her latest book ‘Change Our Stories Change our World’ was published in 2020. Karen maintains the ‘Moving Upstream’ blog and is a regular article writer. A recent article “For Your Consideration: To be Anti-Growth is to be Pro-humanity” can be read at Medium here.

Madeline Weld is president of Population Institute Canada which seeks to inform the Canadian public and policy-makers about population matters. She has impressively held this position for almost 30 years. In the spirit of this episode of busting population myths, Madeline has published many impressive articles on this subject. Favourites include: “The 'Silent Lie' in Coverage of Madagascar’s Famine,” “The Myth of Canada’s Underpopulation: Lay it to rest” and “Deconstructing the dangerous dogma of denial”.

Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010. This year, Val has published her new book “8 Billion Reasons Population Matters.” More information regarding her new book can be found here. Val’s website, Population In Sync here.

Want to find out more about World Population Day? Considering we’re reaching an 8 Billion milestone very soon in a heating world running out of resources, you might imagine that the United Nations Population Fund (UNFP) might sound a little anxious in their write up of the event. However, they sound pretty upbeat, showing more concern over population ‘alarmists’. Go figure.

The UNFP also raise concerns around the historical legacy of family planning and reproductive health care. Jane O’Sullivan’s article for The Overpopulation Project “History was rewritten to delegitimize population concerns: we need to reassert the truth” challenges these notions and is essential reading. Given that the high court in the USA has just upended the Roe vs. Wade case, ruling no constitutional right to abortion in the USA, your PGAP host believes this is just the latest in a long trend of denying funding and support for family planning and healthcare. This impacts women for the worse and contributes to the 121 million unintended pregnancies worldwide every year.

All the more need for episodes such as this one, bringing together a united female voice to the vexed population issue.

Immigration was raised in this episode and on this topic I would like to invite you to watch a small video I made in 2020 for Sustainable Population Australia. “Migrant perspective - infrastructure and population growth in Melbourne” is unique in that a first generation migrant interviewee speaks directly to a population organisation in regard to growth based issues affecting his community in Melbourne’s growth corridors. Regardless of whether you believe this is a ‘population’ issue or merely ‘a lack of planning and infrastructure’, we can all agree that our current growth based paradigm is creating infrastructure starved ghettos that impact the prospects of newly arrived migrants.

Can’t get enough PGAP? We don’t blame you! Click here and here for both World Population Day 2020 episodes, including recognisable guests such as Dave Gardner from Growthbusters and Terry Spahr, Director of ‘8 Billion Angels.’ Or our 2021 episodes with Sustainable Population Australia’s John Coulter and Nandita Bajaj from Population Balance. Links here and here. Karen Shragg was also guest on PGAP last year, her episode ‘Changing Our Story on Population’ can be found here. Finally, Jane O’Sullivan, quoted in this episode, was interviewed earlier this year, along with SPA Patron Ian Lowe, which can be heard here. That should be enough to keep you busy!

Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia, SPA are proud supporters of PGAP. They are also very kind in allowing PGAP to venture beyond population into a broader conversation on Degrowth. This includes constructive conversations (we hope!) with guests who have very different or even oppositional perspectives on overpopulation.

As the only Australian environmental charity currently willing to be centre stage on the ecological impacts of population growth, SPA relies on community support and donations to give momentum for their uphill battle. Consider giving them a little something here.

If you’re still feeling charitable after that, please consider supporting PGAP. Podcasts like ours are the antidote and panacea to a mainstream media that has become corrupt, vacuous and dangerous. It is word of mouth that spread the work of the people, and PGAP is no exception. Please actively share this episode and others among your networks. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. Please contact us to let us know what you think to this and other episodes of PGAP and what topics and guests you would like to see in future.

More information on PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found on his website here.

_All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast.
_

Special Guests: Karen Shragg, Madeline Weld, and Valorie Allen.

The discussion paper ‘Population and Climate Change’ can be downloaded from the Sustainable Population Australia website here. You can find out more about SPA and their recent campaigns here and here.

Ian was recently interviewed on ABC’s Radio National Science Show on the ‘Population and Climate Change’ discussion paper here. As a patron for Sustainable Population Australia, Ian was also interviewed for SPA’s ‘Meet the Patrons’ series of short videos here.
Ian’s interview can be heard between 00:07:10 and 00:29:52

Jane has just had a very topical article published in The Overpopulation Project: “Ukraine war: temporary glitch or tipping point?” Last year, she was guest on the award winning US based podcast “This Sustainable Life” to discuss SPA’s previous commissioned report “Silver Tsunami Or Silver Lining: Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population” - which Jane authored.
Jane’s interview can be heard between 00:33:08 and 01: 01: 50

I note that the New Economy Network Australia (NENA) were very kind in sharing the ‘Population and Climate Change’ discussion paper. Their director, Dr. Michelle Maloney was one of the first guests on PGAP and both Jane and I have presented at NENA run conferences. NENA is collaborating with Griffith University's Yunus Centre to deliver a short course: " Building the Wellbeing Economy: Foundations for Learning and Practice." The course brings together 21 thought-leaders over 8 weeks to discuss how we might reshape the economy in which both people and the planet thrive. This is critical for any Post-Growth person to consider. To register go here, or follow the poster below!

Loved the episode? Hated it? Love the episode but hate PGAP? Firecely undecided? We’d love to hear your (constructive) thoughts and feedback by contacting us here. Word of mouth is our main tool to crack the mainstream, so please consider sharing this episode, subscribe to PGAP or rate and reviewing this episode on Apple Podcasts.

Want to find out more about the host? Check out my website here.

Special Guests: Dr. Jane O'Sullivcan and Prof. Ian Lowe.

Dr. Shane Simonsen operates a ‘Zero Input Agriculture’ farm in the highlands of South-East Queensland. What does zero input mean and does it work? Shane shares with PGAP how a zero input system works, in addition to weaving his vast knowledge and unique insights into a very pithy conversation with PGAP host Michael Bayliss.

Shane regularly posts on his farm and his worldly observation on his website, Zero Input Agriculture, which we encourage you to explore. Shane has also been a guest on podcasts such as Abundant Edge.

Shane and I are mutual contacts of Michel Stasse and Doon Wyborn, both doing great things in permaculture and collapse awareness. Both have also been previous guests on PGAP. You can listen to Doon’s interview here and Michel here.

Do you enjoy this episode? Then please Support PGAP. Subscribe here. Contact us here. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast.

Last episode I interviewed regenerative farming icon Charles Massy to promote the Fenner conference ‘Making Australian Agriculture Sustainable.’ The Fenner conference proved to be fantastic with its array of fantastic speakers and its juggling of the precariousness of Australia’s agricultural predicaments while also offering many hopeful solutions. I certainly learnt a lot more about dung beetles! The conference was supported and sponsored by Sustainable Population Australia, who also support this podcast. Good on them!

These are a couple of online screenshots from the first day of the conference. I am sure higher quality photos, taken on ground, will be available soon!

The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’, the first recorded single from my band ‘Shock Octopus’ back in 2011. Back then, songs about collapse were still seen as somewhat niche in the WA music scene (and in mainstream society more broadly). These days, collapse is so obviously a thing that even the Murdoch Press are talking about it! What can I say, I was there first. You can find out more about ‘Safe Room’ at the Shock Octopus Bandcamp page here (you can even support the artist and buy a copy – hint).

Would you like to find out more about PGAP’s host, Michael Bayliss? You can find out more at my website here.

Disclaimer: All opinions from PGAP’s guests are theirs alone, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or position held by PGAP, Michael Bayliss, or Sustainable Population Australia. This includes all current and previous research, work, advocacy or opinions attributable to our interviewees.

Special Guest: Dr. Shane Simonsen.

One of the keynote speakers, Charles Massy, has become a household name in regenerative farming. He has a bestselling book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler: A New Agriculture’ and has been the subject of an Australian Story episode. PGAP is delighted to have Charles join us to discuss regenerative agriculture in depth and tell us more about the upcoming Fenner conference.

(a sample of the many speakers at the 2022 Feneer conference)

To find out more or to register for the 2022 Fenner conference ‘Making Agriculture Sustainable’ click here.

The Australian Story episode of Charles Massy can be found here. To find out more about his book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler,’ start here

Rod Taylor, one of the Fenner organisers, has also recently published a book ‘ Ten Journeys on A Fragile Planet.’ Agriculture and care for country are both reoccurring themes in this book. You can find out more here.

This year’s Fenner conference is made possible by the generous support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). SPA are also the main supporters of PGAP. You can read more on their recent discussion paper of ‘Population and Climate Change’ here. If population policy in Australia is a concern for you in the lead up to the election, SPA offers come handy hints on making a difference here. SPA relies on grass roots donations, supporters and members to ensure that their important message has cut through in a generally unforgiving media environment. To support SPA, find out more here.

It has been 50 years since that wonderful but intimating book ‘Limits to Growth’ was published in 1972. It is as relevant as ever (especially as the worst case projections in the book are all playing out on cue). A great article was recently written on the anniversary which can be read here.

Got feedback? Post-Growth ideas? Or would you like to be a guest on PGAP or contribute your music? Then please say hello on our contact page here. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. Share PGAP far and wide – with your kind support PGAP is becoming increasingly known and popular Thank you!

The music of choice for this episode is 'Blame It On The Sun' by 'Counting Backwards'. A link to their Bandcamp page can be found here.

Want to find out a little more about PGAP’s host? Michael’s website can be visited here.

Special Guest: Charles Massy.

During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

This is not the first time that a conversation between Adrian and I has been recorded! I first met Adrian back in 2018 on a prior visit to Adelaide where we bonded over Sustainable Population (it is actually possible to bond over this controversial issue – trust me!) Not only did we bond, I was also invited to talk exclusively on this issue as the (then) new Communications Manager for SPA. We recorded outside and the interview ended both abruptly and apocalyptically as a storm surged through toward the end. I took it as a sign of the times we are in!

Adrian was the first person I contacted when I arrived back in Adelaide in March this year. My stay was only supposed to be ‘a couple of weeks’ - this turned out to be nearly six months in the end! Anyway, I was delighted when Adrian said an emphatic ‘yes’ to a return interview for PGAP. It was great to come back to the property and capture Adrian’s own thoughts issues such as population, degrowth, and what a different, more eco-centric society looks like for him. It was also a great opportunity to ask some questions around the ethics of domesticating native animals and the pros and cons around this. I have always found the conversations with fellow podcast hosts an extra blast and Adrian proves to be no exception.

It was also a fantastic opportunity to meet with the animals at Animals Anonymous HQ and wander his property, including an impressive native vegetation restoration project. Below is me bonding with a python and overcoming my ophiophobia.

A word of warning: For some reason my recording apparatus struggled with the numerous background sounds on the site of Adrian’s property and overcompensated by dipping in and out of volume throughout the discussion. From the technology's perspective, it was trying to do the right thing, but at the end of the day I have to give it an A for effort but an F for execution and for not consulting with me its intent. I spent days on manual ‘volume’ control editing to even out the worst of it but unfortunately it still sounds a bit shaky.

Also – because I had to record the intro and outro before I left Adelaide, I had no idea of what music I was going to play for the episode so I didn’t say anything ‘on air.’ So let it be written that I’m honoured to be playing a track from local Adelaide musician and dear friend of mine Sean Tyner called ‘On The Streets.'

I hope you all forgive me for the recording quirks on this occasion. I promise to make it up to you next time!

And a couple of links before we say adieu:

The Animals Anonymous website can be found here
The Aussie Wildlife Show can be found here on Podbean. It can be found on many Podcast listening platforms.
If you haven’t had enough of me rabbiting on and want to know what I sound like as an interview, my interview with Aussie Wildlife Show can be found here.
Sean Tyner’s music can be found on his website here.
Finally, thank you to Sustainable Population Australia for making PGAP possible. You may be interested in their new short video 'Let's rethink Big Australia' here

Special Guest: Adrian Sherriff.

This special travelogue episode of PGAP was recorded all the way back in January 2021. My car and I had left Melbourne after the second lockdown and we were enjoying the coastline of NSW when COVID started creeping into Sydney and Brisbane again. Originally I intended to only go as far north as Coffs Harbour, but as I couldn’t get back to Victoria, I received an invitation to stay for a week or so at in intentional community inland of the Northern Rivers, right on the border of Queensland and right near a town called ‘Woodenbong.’ I was intrigued and took up the offer.

At Bindarrabi, I joined the residents at house meetings, communal dinners, gardening bees, path and wall building, and a lot of swimming during the warm days at the amazing water holes. Every single one of the amazing residents at Bindarrabi were incredibly gracious and made me feel right at home and part of a buzzing community. Toward the end of my stay, Doone and I impulsively agreed to record an interview, in a tin caravan come office during a heavy sub-tropical summer rainfall. I feel that this gives the interview a sense of place an intimacy.

I’m not sure why I held onto this interview for so long, however the broadcast of this episode falls shortly after the sobering news of the new report by the IPCC. This is accidentally great timing, as Doone’s interview starts off with a tour of Bindarrabi before going deeper into a reflection of overshoot, collapse and environmental tipping points. Doon does not shy away from sharing his emotions and concerns as the interview progresses and indeed I feel compelled to give a slight disclaimer to be emotionally prepared before listening to this episode.

The choice of music this episode is ‘No Easy Way Down’ from my own band ‘Shock Octopus.’ . Given the sobering news of the IPCC report and some of the discussions in this interview, I thought it would be quite thematically consistent to play a song that is about climate change from the perspective of a polar bear. ‘No Easy Way Down’ was released as a fundraiser single last year to raise funds for Extinction Rebellion.

Following the episode, want to explore some more? Let these links be thine guide!

The sixth assessment report of The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) can be read in full here. Given the future of existence depends in part on following these recommendations, I do agree taking the time to read in full. Otherwise, I like the summary from The Guardian here.

The homepage for the Bindarrabi community can be found here. They are looking for new additions to their community if you’re feeling the call.

Recently I spoke at Adelaide based Economic Reform Australia. I strongly recommend checking them out, they have a great newsletter full of economic critique articles.

I was interviewed on Radio Adelaide Songcatcher and Mixtape programs to talks about the stories behind the songs with my decade long band Shock Octopus. If you’re tired of hearing me ramble about post-growth and would rather I ramble about another topic, these links are for you.

A huge thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for making the podcast possible.

Special Guest: Doone Wyborn.

In the 'Tasmanian Perspectives’ series, PGAP host Michael Bayliss travels around the Apple Isle to interview Post-Growth mainlanders who have resettled in Tasmania and to discuss their reasons why.
In this episode, I travel to the Huon Valley to meet with Michel Stasse, long-time Degrowth advocate, founder of the 'Damn The Matrix' blog and DIO superhero who self-built an impressive self-sufficient, off-grid eco home in the Huon Valley.

Mike kindly took some time aside for giving me a tour of his home where the on-site interview took place and discussed with me his reasons for moving from Queensland to Tasmania. We then discuss his life journey towards understanding limits to growth, standing for politics in Queensland, to his current advocacy for Degrowth and his reasons why electric cars and the green new deal won’t save us.

I interviewed Mike in February on a hot day for Tasmania - mid 30s - and the day in which Australia endured the Facebook kerfuffle, including the removal of content from Australian activist groups and organisations. As such, there was a whiff of apocalypse already in the air, and during the interview Mike certainly doesn't mince words as he takes us somewhere down the deep end. So a 'health warning’ for anyone expecting a utopian outlook for this episode.

Also a slight 'sound warning’ - the episode was recording on site in a dynamic living environment so there is the occasional background sound during the interview. The intro and outro are recorded in my current house-sit in Adelaide, which is right near a main road and right near an operational quarry. So there is the occasional background traffic rumble. Some may call it unfortunate recording conditions - I prefer to call it 'character.' Anyone listening who would prefer pristine recording conditions is always more than welcome to buy me a house somewhere nice ANYTIME.

Did this episode scratch the surface leaving you wanting more? Want to find out more about Mike Stasse or Professor Ian Lowe, who is mentioned in my discussions with Mike and who I include an interview excerpt at the start of the episode? Well I'm glad you asked!

The blog 'Damn The Matrix’ can be found here

Michel discusses peak oil (and other fun things!) on YouTube here

I interviewed Professor Ian Lowe as part of Sustainable Population Australia's 'meet our patrons' video series that can be found on the YouTube channel here. Excerpts from that interview were played at the start of this episode. More information on Ian Lowe can be found on the SPA website here.

Also....if you liked the music track of choice Epi-Primate, I am relived that the band Heytesburg still have a presence on BandCamp here, even though they are on indefinite hiatus. I can't believe this track is almost a decade old now.

Special Guest: Michael Stasse.

Post-Growth still exists on the fringe and for most of us on the fringe voting can be a frustrating exercise choosing between who will lead us through several more years of growth on a finite planet. It can be even more frustrating for independents and minor parties who advocate for something better than the status quo – a seeming endless uphill climb full of long hours, campaign trails, etc. This being the case, is it better to opt out or opt in? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this question further with the Honourable Kelvin Thomson.

Kelvin is a former member of the Labor party and since 1981 has been elected for local council, State Government and, from 1996 served as Federal member for the inner-north Melbourne electorate of Wills for two decades.

Kelvin balanced longevity with a very unique and individual outlook that often put him at odds with mainstream politics. Kelvin was – and still is – an active champion for environmental conversation, campaigned against overdevelopment including the influence of property developers on political decisions, and perhaps most famously for his staunch position on population policy. This sometimes earned him the reputation as a ‘maverick’. I prefer to see it as rare integrity.

Since retiring from Federal parliament in 2016 Kelvin is now Chief of Staff for Victorian MP Clifford Hayes of Sustainable Australia Party (SAP). Kelvin discusses with me his journey from Labor to SAP, the successes and challenges he faced during his time in and out of office and why there is a place for politics in promoting the post-growth cause.

A qualifier: This podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) who are apolitical and therefore do not endorse any one political party. However, during this episode I highlighted several political parties and candidates who have policies that have some common ground with the post-growth movement. In addition to Sustainable Australia, you may be interested in finding out more about Animal Justice Party, Save The Planet Party, New Liberals (definitely not like old Liberals), Australian Democrats, and Craig Walters. Know of any others? Let us know!

Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia, they recently released a discussion paper debunking the myths of an ageing population. Population sustainability is not always renowned for its cheeriness, however the discussion paper – “Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population” is not only a fantastic read but also quite upbeat. The discussion paper has enjoyed some positive media coverage the past week which is fantastic. You may also be interested in Kelvin's impassioned speech at SPA's 2019 AGM here.

And speaking on contacting PGAP, please don’t be shy! Our contact form is here. Want to feedback on any of the episodes or want to share your own post-growth ideas? I’d love to hear from you. Do you frequent Apple Podcasts or Stitcher? Then please rate PGAP and leave a review. The more reviews, the more listeners – which means the more people stop wanting more. If you’ll excuse the Paradox….

The song of choice today is from Adelaide band ‘The Tangerines.’ To find out more about The Tangerines, visit their website here.

Special Guest: THE HONOURABLE KELVIN THOMSON .

Leith van Onselen writes relentlessly as The Unconventional Economist at the blog site MacroBusiness, one of the more successful fringe media sites in Australia (and by 'fringe' we mean 'not owned by Murdoch and yet still surviving').

Speaking of mainstream media, Leith is so far the only guest (or host) ever to have appeared on The Bolt Report and The Today Show. Now before we get too alarmed, I argue that this is not because Leith is a covert neoliberal but rather his communication style is such that his unconventional economics can appeal to a broad mainstream audience.

During the interview we find out why Leith is, indeed, an 'unconventional' economist and conclude that, indeed, this is because he is at heart just like to rest of us. He wants to see an end to deregulated neoliberal growth that benefits the few at the expense of the many. Instead, he would like to see more leisure, community, well-being, lower consumption and more considered frugality.

Leith would also like to see an end to Australia's high rate of population growth that have been boosted through higher levels of economic migration over the last two decades which has seen his home city of Melbourne climb from 3.5 to over 5 million in under 20 years. This is an ‘unconventional’ position that tends to be unpopular with both big business and the left, however we love to put population under the microscope on PGAP, so we explore this issue further with Leith.

Leith informs us on the fiscal policy that the government should take in the difficult decade of recession that lies ahead (as it turned out in the October 06 budget, the government didn't really follow Leith's advice). I begin the episode by sharing my take on the budget and end the episode by giving my take on a recent article that aims some criticism at Degrowth advocates (from an author to which I was not expecting this from).

It comes down to the fact that there is a bit of an argument in economics land: IS it possible to have GDP growth without physical growth that requires resource extraction? Or in other words, is it possible to decouple economic growth from environmental destruction? What are your thoughts? Can we decouple our way out of our problems or is this just wishful thinking? Please let me know your thoughts by clicking the contact tab on this website and let me know if you would like your opinion broadcast on the next episode.

For those who like links:

Leith lead a discussion paper for Sustainable Population Australia titled:** Population growth and Infrastructure in Australia: the catch-up illusion** the link can be found here

The song of choice today was from my own band 'Shock Octopus’ entitled 'In A Box'. Thematically it brings an old Malvina Reynold song into the apartment/compartment world of the 21st Century. Musically it is Talking Heads meets rock/rap, but hopefully better than that sounds. Link here. an exerpt of the song ended up at the 'Theme' to the SPA crowdfunded series 'Tough Crowd'.

Special Guest: Leith van Onselen.