Louis De Jaeger, author of “SOS: Save Our Soils”, asked this question as he travelled the world to explore the whole gamut of regenerative farms and land management practices. Louis’ holistic, non-judgemental and open-minded approach is very refreshing. As far as we’re aware, he is the only person who has managed to endorse veganic farming while also enjoying an enthusiastic introduction to his book by Allan Savory, figurehead of the holistic grazing movement. Louis concludes that all regenerative farming methods have their place, depending on context, so long as the soil is kept healthy with its precious microbiome intact.

Louis de Jaeger is a Belgian based eco-entrepreneur, landscape consultant, speaker and author. You can find out more at his WEBSITE. “SOS: Save Our Soils”, launched in June 2025, is an impressive blend of research told through a conversational, easy-to-read style which makes it an essential addition to the growing wealth of regenerative literature. To purchase your own copy of SOS, visit HERE.

Industrial agriculture is a top global driver of environmental change. A post-growth future requires us to completely reimagine how we approach agriculture, not only with regard to methodology, but also to the size and scale of our food growing enterprises. Following the interview with Louis, co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss engage in a ‘panel discussion’ where Louis’ book and interview are discussed (along with the broader regenerative movement) from a post-growth perspective. We encourage you to stick around to the end of the interview.

Many thanks to West Australian permaculture band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ for the inclusion of their song ‘Earthworm Bill.’ You can find out more about Formidable Vegetable at their Bandcamp page HERE. Michael recently made a short video on a Johnson Su method composting workshop which also includes this song. It may be watched HERE.

We highly recommend watching the debate between George Monbiot (precision fermentation advocate) and Allan Savory HERE. If you would like to listen to more episodes on the theme of regenerative agriculture, you may enjoy PGAP’s interview with Charles Massy HERE. We also recommend several episodes on permaculture, including special guests David Holmgren HERE or Shane Simonsen on Zero Input Agriculture HERE.

In other news, we are pleased to share an online trophy awarded to us by Million Podcasts, an aggregate podcast site. PGAP sits in the top 50 of global ‘Sustainable Living’ podcasts, which is very encouraging. This is made possible by the PGAP community and word of mouth. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Alternatively, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform.

You can find out more about co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE

Time stamp -

Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss

00:00:00 to 00:05:28

Interview P1 with Louis De Jaeger
00:05:43 to 00:35:21

Intermission + 'Earthworn Bill' from 'Formidable Vegetable'
00:35:38 to 00:38:20

Interview P2 with Louis De Jaeger
00:38:20 to 00:53:42

Panel Discussion and Outro with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss
00:53:57 to 01:07:30

Special Guest: Louis De Jaeger.

Want to explore more of the Formidable Vegetable discography? The video for ‘No Such Thing as Waste’, the featured song for this episode, can be seen here. We also play brand new track 'Short Attention Span' from brand new album 'In Real Life' at the end of the interview. Bandcamp is the best place to go to hear all the back catalogue. Link here.

PGAP will be taking a – hopefully – short break before rejuvenating with Season 4 later this year. Just because we’re on pause doesn’t mean you have to be! Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us here to give us your feedback and especially what topics and guests you’d like to see for season 4.

In the meantime, if you enjoy the permaculture theme you may also like PGAP’s interview with David Holmgren (who Charlie lived with back in 2020) or Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family. Or you may be interested in the Tasmanian Perspectives series of interviews in season 2, including the quiet permaculture revolution of Tassie’s northern shores, or Charles Massy, regenerative farmer, from Season 3. Most of these episodes have Formidable Vegetable providing the music.

If you want to find out more about host Michael Bayliss, please head to my website here.

Otherwise, episode timestamp below and see you all in a few months! Until then, until then….

Timestamp!

0:00:00 - 0:08:13 Introduction with Michael Bayliss
0:08:13 - 0:10:59 'No Such Thing As Waste' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.
0:11:00 - 1:03:11 Interview with Charlie Mgee
1:03:11 - 1:04:05 'Short Attention Span' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.
1:04:06 - 1:06:31 Outro with Michael Bayliss

Special Guest: Charlie Mgee.

Dan McTiernan is a certified transpersonal psychology coach and subtle energy meditation teacher and has been deeply involved in the permaculture movement as a teacher, entrepreneur, writer and homesteader for 15 years.

Johanna McTiernan is a certified subtle energy meditation teacher and a trained nature connection facilitator. With her husband, Dan, she has created permaculture projects including a community supported bakery in the UK, a regenerative olive and almond farm in Spain and a homestead in her native Finland. She is a lifelong seeker of meaning and meeting her family's needs in deep relationship with the land is her passion.

Earthbound, the project Dan and Johanna run, offers 1-1 and group coaching facilitating growth, connection and healing at the fertile edge between transpersonal psychology, embodied meditation & permaculture.

PGAP host Michael Bayliss first met Dan McTiernan through mutual connections with Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen. You can find out more about Holistic Activism here.

Interested in listening to more PGAP episodes on permaculture? You might be interested in the season 3 episode with Shane Simon on Zero Input Agriculture or Season 2 episode with Tania Brooks for our Tasmanian Perspectives mini series of interviews.

Would you prefer to listen to more episodes on behaviour change and spirituality? Our last episode with Paul Collins is a great listen. You might also like to travel back to season 1 for our interview with Darpan.

Did you like this episode of PGAP? Then share it far and wide! Rate and review on Apple Podcast. Subscribe to PGAP here. You can contact us here to let us know your thoughts on this and other episodes and what topics and guests you would like to see for future episodes.

The homepage for PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found here.

All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast.

Special Guests: Johanna McTiernan and Dan McTiernan .

Having crossed paths with Terry Leahy through several community, gardening and permaculture initiatives in Melbourne, it was fantastic to reconnect with Terry again and dig in deep (literally and figuratively) over this very fascinating and thought provoking book.

Support Post-Growth Australia Podcast. Subscribe to us through this link . Contact us on the contact form here. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here. PGAP exists free of corporate sponsorship and advertising, so we rely exclusively on word of mouth to sow the seeds of the podcast that explores the most critical issues facing the planet.

Would you like your very own copy of 'The Politics of Permaculture?' You can acquire it through Pluto Press here

The song of choice from this episode is the very topical 'Climate Movement' from Formidable Vegetable. . Given how many times I have played Formidable Vegetable on PGAP, it is fair to say that I am quite the fan. It was wonderful to see them play live at New Years Eve in Albany and to discover we are (sort of) neighbours.

If you would like to find out more about Terry Leahy's work he has kindly provided some links below:

Leahy, Terry (2019) Food Security for Rural Africa: Feeding the Farmers First, Routledge.

Leahy, Terry (2017) Humanist Realism for Sociologists, Routledge,

Leahy, Terry, Website – [The Gift Economy](www.gifteconomy.org.au)

Leahy, Terry – YouTube channel: What’s Wrong with the World and How to Fix it.

Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary - 53 minutes version

Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary- 20 minutes educational version

And if this wasn't enough links:

I recently had my 'post-growth manifesto' published on the Ending Overshoot blog. It is based on the script I used for the Christmas 2021 PGAP special.

In Season 1 of PGAP I interviewed Anitra Nelson who had just co-authored an exciting overview of the Degrowth movement. I actually met Anitra through one of Terry's day parties. It is all one big happy and most functional family at PGAP!

Too much permaculture barely enough? PGAP has interviewed David Holmgren, Caroline Smith, Tania Brookes and Artist as Family

Special Guest: Terry Leahy.

Tania Brookes is an indigenous Maori woman living on Palawa country in lutruwita, Tasmania, Australia. Currently Tania is the Administrator for the Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENTs) and is co Administrator for the national Community Exchange System in Australia covering LETS, Community Currency and Time Banking groups around Australia. Tania is a permaculture practitioner/educator affiliated with the RESEED Centre and Live Well Tasmania in northwest Tasmania.

Tania discusses with me her reasons for moving to Tasmania from suburban Melbourne and the wonderful community she is now part of in the northwest. She shares her insightsof how the welcoming Tasmanian spirit in smaller, more intimate towns creates a culture of stronger community and giving. We discuss the joys and challenges of being involved in the broader permaculture community, and where permaculture ethics intersect with indigenous values of connection and care for country. We explore the role of spirituality to reconnect with the earth and each other, and finally, Tania shares her vision for change in regards to town planning and the growth based economy more broadly.

I had an absolute blast talking to Tania – her care for people, community and place are really on show throughout our discussion.

I would like to thank Tania for inviting me to her home and for letting me rearrange her living room to fit all my ridiculous over the top recording equipment! When I arrived she played for me a beautiful piece of local music, ‘My Mother the Mountain’ from Claire Anne Taylor. I was taken so much by the beauty of the song and Claire’s unique expressive voice. With Claire’s permission, I play this track at the end of the interview, as I believe it perfectly encapsulates the connection to family, community and place that were core values discussed in this interview.

This interview was made possible by support from Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion. Also a shout out to SPA for making PGAP possible.

_PGAP wishes to acknowledge and pay respect to the Tasmanian Aboriginal people as the traditional and original owners, and continuing custodians of this land on which this episode was recorded and acknowledge Elders – past, present and emerging. _

Did you enjoy this episode and would like to explore more?

The Reseed Centre in Penguin is an incredible community hub. Click here to find out more
I also had the privilege to visit Live Well Tasmania in Wynyard, also doing incredible things.
Tania Brookes is the administrator for Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENT) – find out more about their great work here.
Claire Anne Taylor’s ‘My Mother, The Mountain’ has nearly 21 000 views on YouTube! Help give her OVER 21 000 views by clicking here. You can also buy her music at her website here.
We name-checked Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism in this episode, who helped make this interview possible. Check them out.

Liked this episode of PGAP? You might like….

My interview with Prof. Anne Poelina, Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner, gives insight into a First Nation perspective on connection and care for country which I felt resonated with many of Tania’s own insights.
Artist as Family explores a family who moved to rural Victoria to live a life a voluntary simplicity and foster a strong local community gift economy connection.
Finally, if you’re here because of the permaculture, you can’t go past my interview with David Holmgren!

Want to connect more with PGAP?
You can contact us here
Subscribe to us here
I'm pretty sure that a link the episode on Apple Podcast can be found here

Until next time!

Special Guest: Tania Brookes.

The interview begins with a tour of their quarter acre block that they share with their son Woody and their dog Zero. The usual modern day trappings of carports, flushable toilets, televisions and gas heating have been replaced by food forests, closed loop water and compost systems, rocket stoves and fermenting tables. Sounds like they have their priorities right! The interview was recorded late last year as lockdown was on the wane. Therefore the tiny houses and on site cottages where volunteers, WWOOFers and community builders often stay were absent of the usual hive of activity.

As the interview moved on, we explored the concepts of neo-peasantry, community sufficiency, and how, as artists as family, they have turned art-form in an everyday expression of being by reimagining a life that is less dependent on the industrialised systems inherent in the infinite growth based system.
I learnt so much during this interview and I was also beautifully challenged around my choices of veganism and being child-free as a response to the climate and ecological emergencies. They also shared their perspective on how modern growth based capitalism is closely interconnected with centuries of gender inequality – I particularly resonated with Patrick’s comparison of ‘toxic patriarchy’ with a monoculture of runaway blackberries. It is not the blackberries that are the problem but rather the lack of balance.

We also compared travel notes. I have spent the last couple of months on post-lockdown freedom driving up and down the east coast in my LPG car, staying at airbnbs more often than I camped, and shopped at Woolies and Coles whenever I couldn’t find a local fruit and veg shop. So I was humbled to hear of Meg and Patrick’s cycle adventure to Cape York achieved on next to no money through free-camping and foraging. Just another example of their dedication to the planet.

Now I am sure you are dying to find out more about Meg, Patrick, Woody, Zero and the powerhouse that is 'Artist as Family' - so here are a few linky links:

Artist as Family blogpage

Artist as Family YouTube channel (hundred of videos here with advice on just about anything and everything)

My introduction to Patrick Jones when he delivered an online talk with Anitra Nelson (who I have previously interviewed)

They made a VIDEO for their song Water! It is a must see (plus you get to hear the whole song)

During the intro I referred to an article where the human made material world now outweighs the planet's biomass - if you're feeling like another cheerful bedtime read, look no further than here. P.S. we're running out of sand. What better way to deal with these frightening indicators than to keep building more shit. What could possibly go wrong........

Special Guest: Artist as Family.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.