In June 2025, Michael and Mark participated in a community consultation weekend on the future development of North Albany. Michael later presented his observations at the Albany Community Environment Centre forum ahead of the City of Albany elections in September. His presentation explained to prospective councillors and fellow environmentalists why urban planning matters for both social wellbeing and ecological resilience. It also invited attendees to reflect upon the long‑term consequences of unchecked growth for the city’s future.

For this episode, Michael reads out this talk for posterity, which can also be read on the PGAP blog HERE. This prompts an open discussion with Mark around issues such as:

• Albany’s growth pains and the impact this has for future planning, housing security and the natural environment;

• How face to face community consultation, including Citizen Assemblies, can encourage cooperative debate and discussion, in contrast to the divisiveness which is so common in online or social media debates;

• How holistic approaches to debate can ensure that everyone can find common ground and navigate difference of opinion across many critical issues, including overpopulation;

• The importance of including post-growth thinking into our conversations, to encourage people to think about the bigger picture and act proactively as well as reactively;

• Finding the time to be in a space outside of language and narrative. An article, written by Michael in 2023, argues why the pursuit of growth makes this all the more difficult. Link HERE;

• Election fatigue in which it seems to be a case of the trees voting for the axe at federal, state and local levels, and:

• Finally, on a darkly humours note, we imagine what kind of apocalypse we face when world coffee stocks run out.

As we draw a close to season seven, we reflect on a very good year for PGAP. This has been our longest season to date, beginning as far back as November 2024, when we broadcasted the radio documentary ‘Rethinking Sustainability’. Since then, Season Seven has covered many topics across fifteen episodes, such as steady state economics, techno dystopia, regenerative agriculture and a panel discussion on Degrowth at the University of New South Wales. This year, PGAP was recognised by the site MillionPodcasts as being in the top ten global podcasts that covers overpopulation and in the top fifty podcasts on Sustainable Living. This is very encouraging news to hear as we take a break over the festive season and plan for season eight.

While we are on our break, we encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We are grateful to anyone who takes the time to review and rate us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast platform. We are also appreciative when people take the time to contact us directly with feedback and suggestions for future episode topics or guests. Many of our interviews this season came about from community suggestions or from prospective guests who emailed us. Reaching out is so important, not just for building connection but for helping us to broaden our range of episode topics and guests.

Last, but certainly not least, we extend our gratitude to Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), which has supported PGAP since its inception in July 2020. This season, we also bid farewell to John Coulter, a long-time leader of SPA and the wider post-growth movement in Australia who sadly passed away last year. We welcomed SPA’s new patron, Anne Poelina, and spoke with Isaac Kabongo, the Ugandan CEO of the Ecological Christian Organisation, who has represented SPA at COP events. You can learn more about SPA here.

George Tsakraklides is author of The Unhappiness Machine, In The Grip of Necrocapitalism, Beyond the Petri Dish, Frankenpolitics and other works exploring the deeper drivers of civilisational collapse and humanity’s self-destructive trajectory.

With degrees in molecular biology, chemistry, food science, and Earth sciences, George spent two decades in social research, data analytics, and global brand strategy, working with major multinationals, gaining insight into the inner workings of profit-driven systems.

After leaving the corporate world, George turned his focus to humanity’s broken relationship with nature and the repeating patterns of societal failure. This work has featured on Radio Ecoshock, Collapse Chronicles, Post-Doom Conversations and other platforms addressing environmental and civilisational crises.

In this episode, we dive into the intersection of science, philosophy and ecological activism, as explored in George’s latest book, Beyond the Petri Dish. We examine why rational thinking alone falls short and the importance of reconnecting with the expansive Infinity State, a realm beyond reason, to achieve full embodiment.

The conversation also delves into the psychological and societal forces steering humanity away from ecological wisdom, including the role of social media in fuelling addictive, reactionary behaviours. We critique the environmental movement’s entanglement with growth-based paradigms and explore the need for a more honest, existential reckoning with what it means to be human in an age of collapse.

From the pitfalls of call-out culture in activism to the quiet power of tending a conservation garden, we reflect on the value of small, grounded acts in a world that often feels overwhelming. Finally, we explore the role of grief, acceptance and grounded hope in moving beyond paralysis, offering insight for those struggling with eco-anxiety and despair.

For those who want to explore George’s work further, you can check out his website HERE.

You can also find George on Substack here: (1) The George Tsakraklides View | Substack

George’s latest articles on Substack are all recommended and highly pertinent to this episode. Some examples include:

• A Brief History of the Dopamine Dystopia
• Finding Meaning in An Increasingly Absurd World
• The Meta Terror State: A Do-It-Yourself Guide for Aspiring Dictators

George also has an Instagram page where you can view his garden restoration among other things.

In this episode we also discuss how George’s work connects with Holistic Activism. You can read/download the 2025 edition of the Holistic Activism Booklet HERE.

Please feel welcome to support the work of PGAP through subscribing, through sharing this and other episodes with your networks, or by rating and leaving a review on Apple podcast or your favourite platform. We also welcome your feedback and ideas. Please contact us anytime on our contact form here.

Post Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP) is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). All opinions, past work and legacies of our guests so not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: George Tsakraklides.

The aftermath of the US election has left many of us in a state of shock. Voters were faced with a stark choice between more growth-based neoliberalism or alt right extremism, choosing the latter. It was a great day for billionaires either way. As Australia looks to face a very similar choice in mid-2025, it is clear that activists must take stock, recalibrate and work together effectively to advocate for a third alternative that celebrates people and planet. PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss discuss their responses to the election and their recent engagements toward a Degrowth future.

In this episode, Michael shares the speech that he gave on Degrowth at the Torbay Festival, Western Australia in late October – just before the election. A quote from the talk:

“What can we do as Davids against the Goliaths of psychopathic multinational corporations and the politicians who serve time as their apologists for a few years in the promise of a cushy job in the gas industry? This is where I invite you to think about where from here and let’s have the conversation.”

This is a conversation that needs to happen with greater urgency as humanity lurches towards an increasingly dark future.

A transcript of Michael’s talk can be read on the PGAP BLOG.

Mark shares his most recent posting on Holistic Activism following the US election. As Mark explains, “this message isn’t a call for optimism or hope…instead, it’s a call to hold space and to serve both human and non-human futures, with an awareness of our profound interconnectedness.”

The post may be read at the Holistic Activism website HERE. You can be part of the Holistic Activism movement today by joining the HA FACEBOOK GROUP.

PGAP is also proud to be the first to play Mark’s new song ‘Ballad of Yakamia’ performed by his occasional and ongoing musical project ‘Counting Backwards.’ You can download or purchase the song from BANDCAMP.

One take away from the US election is that podcasts have now overtaken mainstream media as public informers. However, did you know that the top 10 performing podcasts tend to lean more towards right wing populism? It is time that podcasts that offer genuine solutions – planned degrowth, steady state economics, wellbeing societies, and stabilising populations start to make a bigger splash in the mainstream media.

We have been very happy with the performance of PGAP’ Season Seven opener, “Rethinking Sustainability” which is looking to break PGAP download records. We invite you to help us to build this momentum. Please SUBSCRIBE and share PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can rate and review us on APPLE PODCAST. CONTACT US with your feedback and recommendations for future episode.

This episode is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. SPA is the only population organisation in the world, that has demonstrated unequivocal support from the broader public, for a sensible and rational population policy. With 17,500 signatures to their position statement, SPA has demonstrated that the issue doesn’t have to be ugly or divisive to win popular support (someone should have told the Republicans). SPA has also released a sobering report on Australia’s water security: “Big thirsty Australia: how population growth threatens our water security and sustainability”.

A couple more links:

This blog piece from CASSE, A Steady Stater’s Response to the Harris-Trump Debate is good for a 'Degrowth' perspective on the Democract/Republic dichotomy.

This video from Resilience.Org, A Dozen Years of Economic Thumb Twiddling, also resonates with us.

From George Monbiot: Trump has pledged to wage war on planet Earth – and it will take a progressive revolution to stop him. "Voters have never been swayed by ‘rational debate’. Only a genuine change in the way we do politics can prevent the march of the right". Indeed.

Our ‘manifesto’ on the population debate can be read on the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.”

Mark’s article “A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue” was published in MEDIUM and the Sustainable Population Australia newsletter May 2024 edition. Want to find out more about Holistic Activism? The booklet can be Downloaded HERE, or accessed at the Holistic Activism website.

Michael’s article “Population growth and wealth inequality are more entwined than we thought: here’s why” was originally published on the Population Media Center blog. An audio summary of the themes may be listened to at the ‘Rethinking Sustainability’ podcast, to which Michael was a guest for the short episode: “Growth and the Parasitic Economy”.

We believe that population sustainability is one essential component of transitioning to a post-growth society and we trust that this episode and our written contributions make for convincing arguments.

Kelvin Thomson, former Australian Federal MP and a huge influence on the population sustainability movement, has released an EP of original music. The track ‘Break Away’, that ends this episode, may be watched on YouTube here.

Sustainable Population Australia has launched a media release for World Population Day: “A population may survive but not thrive if it grows rapidly”. We have been told that this has had some positive response from the media, including interviews with SPA’s national president on mainstream radio.

You can add your name to SPA’s position statement HERE (already at 15,000 signatures) or find out more about how you can make a difference HERE. SPA’s contributions to the population debate are also discussed in this episode.

You can rate and review PGAP at Apple Podcast HERE. Feel free to contact us HERE with your feedback and suggestions, including ideas for future episodes.

In addition to John’s other accolades, he is also an accomplished musician. It was a pleasure to play his song ‘The World Bank Song’ on PGAP. The song was written in 1990 for a protest against the World Bank in Washington DC and the message is arguably even more relevant today. The video may be seen on YouTube and John’s music may also be heard on SoundCloud.

You can find more about the RAINFOREST INFORMATION CENTRE HERE. Or about DEEP ECOLOGY HERE. More links to John’s work include articles on THE RELIGION OF ECONOMICS, THE RIGHTS OF NATURE, and CLIMATE GRIEF. More information regarding the Atlas network may be read HERE and HERE.

You can find out more about HOLISTIC ACTIVISM HERE (founded by co-host Mark Allen). Both Mark and Michael Bayliss have been busy over the last couple of months. Mark has written A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue for Medium. Michael was recently a guest presenter on the Rethinking Sustainability Podcast, on the topic of Growth and the Parasitic Economy.. Mark has written for Independent Australia: Sydney asbestos crisis the tip of the iceberg . EcoVoice published Mark's article Climate Activism and the Crisis of Language . Last but not least, the PGAP Blog has been updated with a new post, Building a house in the 2020s (and other fun things!).

At PGAP, we like to give a shout out to the work of our past guests. The highly anticipated De Gruyter Degrowth Handbook has finally been released! Inside, contributors, including a forward by Jason Hickel, explore various facets of degrowth, delving into its intersections with Marxism, feminism, architecture, and issues related to the global south. A standout chapter, penned by our former podcast guest Alex Baumann and co-author Samuel Alexander, shines a light on the initial privatisation of capitalism, namely land privatisation. While the Handbook itself is behind a paywall, an excellent article in The Conversation gives a great overview.

PGAP will be on break for two months before we return for season six in a couple of months. PGAP has now been on the air for nearly four years and we are so pleased that community support for our grassroots program has gone from strength to strength across the five seasons. We are looking forward to many more stellar guests in season six and we will also be experimenting with 'mini-episodes' for returning guests.

Until then, we invite you to RATE AND REVIEW PGAP, SUBSCRIBE, or CONTACT US with our easy to fill out contact form. Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks.

Until season six, until then!

(All views, opinions, and past and present legacies of PGAP guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP of Sustainable Population Australia who are the kind supporters of this podcast.)

Special Guest: John Seed.

Our first guest Annabel Paulley (interviewed 00:08:19 to 00:37:09) is a coordinator and key member of the Albany based Friends of Yakamia Forest. The Friends of Yakamia have been working tirelessly to protect the titular rate payer land from being rezoned for housing and road development. The land is a fragment of the forest that once covered the northern suburbs of Albany and is home to a host of endemic and threatened plants, bird and animal species. You can find out more about Friends of Yakamia at their Facebook page here.

(Friends of Yakamia visiting state MP for Albany, Rebecca Stephens)

Our second guest Chris Poulton ( interviewed 00:37:23 to 01:09:16) runs Summer Creek Restaurant and Brewery with his family Bakers Hill, nestled in eastern side of the Perth Hills. The property and nearby Kep track have significant historical importance to Western Australia’s formative history, that will be undermined if the Eastlink highway project is passed. Find out more about Rethink Eastlink here. You may also wish to check out the great work from the Save Perth Hills Action Group.

(Chris Poulton)

Our third guest Dr Andrew St John (interviewed 01:09:32 to 01:23:54) is convenor of Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads. Toodyay lies on the transition between the Perth Hills and the Wheatbelt. The impact to lifestyle, legacy and the natural environment of the local scarp ecosystem is threatened by Main Roads WA and other developments (including mining and housing development).

(Andrew St John)

One major focus of this episode is to explore the interrelationship between the great work done at the grassroots by community action groups and the broader issue of wider system change being championed by many activists including degrowth advocates. The South-West of Western Australia is not the only region in the world in which brave citizens are defending their natural and cultural environments from the march of development, progress and concrete. Similar fights are occurring everywhere, globally, all the time. All three guests share a unique vision of their solutions to this worldwide predicament, although all are united with the view that there needs to be fundamental end to the current growth based system. Otherwise, it will be up to community groups to be perpetually putting out the spot fires.

Host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen, co-host and founder of Town Planning Rebellion, during the intro and outro. We gain his perspective on how TPR can work with local action groups to bring critical change to Australia’s broken urban planning sector. We also discuss how to have a nuanced debate on some of the thornier issues such as urban consolidation vs. urban sprawl, and visible (but seldom discussed) impacts of population growth.

You can find out more about host Michael Bayliss at his website here and more about Mark Allen at the Holistic Activism website. Please support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your networks. Do you have feedback or suggestions for future episodes? You can contact us here.

We'd like to leave you with some images of Chris Poulton's property at Bakers Hill, WA, followed by a timestamp of the episode.

Old winery established in 1884 by Edward Keane with 3x 136 year old Moreton bay fig trees on the right.

Looking up from the restaurant at the hill that would be turned in to a freeway (top 3rd of the picture).

White tailed Black Cockatoos spend over 3 months of the year feeding and socialising in area deemed for eastlink freeway. Community building and socialising areas are important for Black cockatoos and not something mainroads is acknowledging in their environmental assessment / report.

Episode time stamp

Introduction with Mark Allen: 00:00:00 to 00:08:04
Annabel Paully (Friends of Yakamia): 00:08:19 to 00:37:09
Chris Poulton (Summer Creek Brewery, Rethink Eastlink): 00:37:23 to 01:09:16
Andrew St John (Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads): 01:09:32 to 01:23:54
Outro with Mark Allen (Town Planning Rebellion): 01:24:10 to 01:34:20

All expressed views and legacies - past and present - of PGAP guests are their own and do not necesarilly reflect the views and legacies of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, or Sustainable Population Podcast, who support this podcast.

Special Guests: Andrew St John, Annabel Paulley, and Chris Poulton.

This episode is dedicated to the memory of Dr. Haydn Washington. Haydn was a prolific and passionate writer and speaker on sustainability, degrowth, the need for population stabilisation and denialism against both climate and population realities. He wrote or edited many books. He was active in CASSE and the Ecological Economics community. The Australian Degrowth movement owes much to Haydn’s work. A tribute to Haydn can be found on Rod’s ‘Fuzzy Logic’ science show here. The link includes an interview that Rod did with Haydn at the 2013 Fenner Conference, organised by Sustainable Population Australia.

You can find out more about "10 Journeys on a Fragile Planet" here.

Want to find out more about the Fuzzy Logic Science show? You can listen via Canberra’s radio 2XX or via the Fuzzy Logic Podcast.

As a prolific and energetic volunteer for Sustainable Population Australia, Rod worked with PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss with many of SPA’s video productions, including: “Talking Heads: Choosing to have children...or not” and an interview with the Ambassador of Costa Rica, “Pura Vida Costa Rica with Ambassador Armando Vargas”. Michael owes much to Rod’s impeccable talent for camera angles and lighting.

Rod was also co-editor of "Sustainability and the New Economics" (Springer, 2022) with Steve Williams. PGAP interviewed Steve on a season 3 episode of PGAP. This volume is an invaluable addition to the post-growth economic movement.

"The path to sustainable civilisation" co-written by Rod Taylor and Mark Disendorf is set to be published in mid 2023. With the tag line - 'civilization's broken, this is how we fix it" - we can't wait for the launch!

Sustainable Population Australia has recently launched a new discussion paper, “How many Australians? The need for Earth-centric ethics” authored by Patron Dr. Paul Collins. Paul was also interviewed for a season 3 edition of PGAP here.

Find out more about co-host Mark Allen’s Holistic Activism movement here.

Support PGAP! Share this episode and others with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Got any feedback or a suggestion for a future episode? Contact us here.

It has been an epic 2022 for PGAP and the hosts. Thank you for being with us through this journey and see you again in the new year.

Special Guest: Rod Taylor.

This first episode of the season is the culmination of a personal journey for them both. For Michael it is an opportunity to share his lived experiences in the West Australia rental market (in what has been labelled as the asbestos capital of the world) - that is too broken to care about whether the basic health and safety needs of renters are being met. Mark who shared in some of those experiences, goes on to look at how it all fits into a wider discussion on the systemic changes that are so urgently required in our town planning and housing sectors.

These experiences have also been written down in the form of a blog: “A Year in Asbestosville: A Farcical Tale of Systemic Failure.” This can be read on the PGAP blog or at Michael’s author profile on Medium. You are spoiled for choice!

In addition to our personal journeys, we also discuss some Degrowth related current affairs. For example…

Did you know that November 15th is the date that our global population will reach 8 billion people. Yay! But what does 8 billion mean for the planet, the environment and for you? Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast, are inviting you to answer this very question in 100 words (or less!) for your chance to win a prize. A link can be found to the competition here. The competition is open to all Australian residents who are not currently members of SPA and it is open until November 11th.

Also, how could we not talk about Liz Truss on a program about Degrowth? Before her six weeks as PM was over, Truss bemoaned the supposed anti-growth coalition. So, a growing number of people thought that this was a great idea and started one up. Mark is currently in conversation with the coalition about how best to frame the population issue in a way that prevents it from becoming overly divisive. Want to find out more? You can visit their website here.

(image found through internet image search).

Finally, we would like to give a nod to Dr. Alex Baumann, who has just released a YouTube video, “The Land Issue | A Social Science Sustainability Breakthrough". Our season 3 interview with Alex, ‘A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth’ has become PGAP’s highest performing ever episode. Hopefully this will help bring the importance of public housing and its role in our transition to degrowth, further into public consciousness.

Perhaps we are making a difference because this year, PGAP nudged into the top 6% of global podcasts! With your help, we can get PGAP into the top 5% of listens, which we would like to think is where it belongs. You can do your bit by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcasts so that others may be inspired to give us a go. Let’s help to build a movement of movements 😊.

You can find out more about Mark, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here
You can find out more about Michael at his website here

Dan McTiernan is a certified transpersonal psychology coach and subtle energy meditation teacher and has been deeply involved in the permaculture movement as a teacher, entrepreneur, writer and homesteader for 15 years.

Johanna McTiernan is a certified subtle energy meditation teacher and a trained nature connection facilitator. With her husband, Dan, she has created permaculture projects including a community supported bakery in the UK, a regenerative olive and almond farm in Spain and a homestead in her native Finland. She is a lifelong seeker of meaning and meeting her family's needs in deep relationship with the land is her passion.

Earthbound, the project Dan and Johanna run, offers 1-1 and group coaching facilitating growth, connection and healing at the fertile edge between transpersonal psychology, embodied meditation & permaculture.

PGAP host Michael Bayliss first met Dan McTiernan through mutual connections with Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen. You can find out more about Holistic Activism here.

Interested in listening to more PGAP episodes on permaculture? You might be interested in the season 3 episode with Shane Simon on Zero Input Agriculture or Season 2 episode with Tania Brooks for our Tasmanian Perspectives mini series of interviews.

Would you prefer to listen to more episodes on behaviour change and spirituality? Our last episode with Paul Collins is a great listen. You might also like to travel back to season 1 for our interview with Darpan.

Did you like this episode of PGAP? Then share it far and wide! Rate and review on Apple Podcast. Subscribe to PGAP here. You can contact us here to let us know your thoughts on this and other episodes and what topics and guests you would like to see for future episodes.

The homepage for PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found here.

All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast.

Special Guests: Johanna McTiernan and Dan McTiernan .

During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

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Jimmy and I reunite after many adventures spanning the globe from Amazonian Peru to the Victorian Gippsland to discuss how the state of the world is in part informed by our conditioning and traumas. Jimmy shares his personal story of leaving behind a successful sales career in corporate America to start a brave new journey in assisting people with emotional and spiritual healing. We discuss how a transition to a better, post-growth world must at some point come from a place of internal transformation.

I also play a selection from a brand new guided mediation from Holistic Activism, designed for us activists in mind - but accessible to anyone and everyone. Holistic Activism is about 'reducing conflict among activists and creating campaigns that are long lasting while also reaching out and connecting with people who have different values to that of our own'. The aim is to do this in a manner that does not enable us to continue to repeat the mistakes of history. Holistic Activism is Australian based and currently maintains an online connection and presence during lockdown.

The meditation is narrated by Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen and I share it with his permission and blessing. We play a six minute extract of the full 16.5 minute Guided Meditation but the entire meditation can be found on the HA Soundcloud channel here. As the meditation is aimed at putting you into a calm and relaxed space, it might not be best to listen to this podcast while driving.

Special Guest: Jim Villarreal.

So what needs to change and how to we facilitate this change? Do we rally against corporations, governments, capitalism and neoliberalism? Or do we need to stop changing the cruel churning world and work to shift our cruel churning minds caught in trauma, language, concepts and judgement? Can one even separate one without the other?

If my observations are correct, these distinctions have been crumbling in recent years. The political left are starting to realise that infighting over diminishing points of different has led to bitterness, resentment and burnout. Meanwhile not a lot has changed – the corporations still call the shots at the relentless expense of the natural world. Activists are looking for other ways. ‘Holistic Activism’, which advocates for collaboration, rather than conflict, is an example of one such movement.

Meanwhile, those in the ‘spirituality movement’ have started to become more politically engaged. (‘Spirituality’ being a - ha ha - broad church but for ease of reference I refer to those who engage in Taoism, Non-Duality, Shamanism and Neo-shamanism, Zen and Buddhism etc.) The response to COVID, particularly from the Victorian state government, has led to a new degree of activism within the community. Some of the same pitfalls that have befallen environmental activists, such as division and clashing over social media, have begun to emerge.

In this episode, I try to make a sense of recent events by talking to Darpan, a wise and incredibly experienced practitioner with decades of experience as a teacher, therapist, councillor, sound healer and facilitator of shamanic retreats. As an active person who has always struggled to sit still, I allow myself to be challenged on Darpan’s perspective that indeed, we CAN’T change the system without changing ourselves. Indeed, the universe is a vastly more complex place than our senses and minds can ever conceptualise - perhaps there is a astral world of spiritual events taking place whether our rationalistic brains like it or not.

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For those coming in to here from a system change angle, some of Darpan’s perspectives may be challenging. For those coming here who are fans of Darpan, you may find MY questions to him and my perspectives at the end of the interview uncomfortable. This need not be a bad thing – let this be a test of different perspective coming together to find common ground. If anything, this is the one thing that may get us out of the mess we’re in.

During the Podcast I refer to Alan Watts - the video almost broke me! and the documentaries Esteem, My Octopus Teacher, and Living in the Time of Dying. In my own bias this is essential viewing.

We are also graced by a stunning, beautiful meditative track from Melbourne artist Belinda Wickens entitled ‘She Comes’. Thank you so much for being part of this Podcast Belinda.

Special Guest: Darpan.