Louis De Jaeger, author of “SOS: Save Our Soils”, asked this question as he travelled the world to explore the whole gamut of regenerative farms and land management practices. Louis’ holistic, non-judgemental and open-minded approach is very refreshing. As far as we’re aware, he is the only person who has managed to endorse veganic farming while also enjoying an enthusiastic introduction to his book by Allan Savory, figurehead of the holistic grazing movement. Louis concludes that all regenerative farming methods have their place, depending on context, so long as the soil is kept healthy with its precious microbiome intact.

Louis de Jaeger is a Belgian based eco-entrepreneur, landscape consultant, speaker and author. You can find out more at his WEBSITE. “SOS: Save Our Soils”, launched in June 2025, is an impressive blend of research told through a conversational, easy-to-read style which makes it an essential addition to the growing wealth of regenerative literature. To purchase your own copy of SOS, visit HERE.

Industrial agriculture is a top global driver of environmental change. A post-growth future requires us to completely reimagine how we approach agriculture, not only with regard to methodology, but also to the size and scale of our food growing enterprises. Following the interview with Louis, co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss engage in a ‘panel discussion’ where Louis’ book and interview are discussed (along with the broader regenerative movement) from a post-growth perspective. We encourage you to stick around to the end of the interview.

Many thanks to West Australian permaculture band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ for the inclusion of their song ‘Earthworm Bill.’ You can find out more about Formidable Vegetable at their Bandcamp page HERE. Michael recently made a short video on a Johnson Su method composting workshop which also includes this song. It may be watched HERE.

We highly recommend watching the debate between George Monbiot (precision fermentation advocate) and Allan Savory HERE. If you would like to listen to more episodes on the theme of regenerative agriculture, you may enjoy PGAP’s interview with Charles Massy HERE. We also recommend several episodes on permaculture, including special guests David Holmgren HERE or Shane Simonsen on Zero Input Agriculture HERE.

In other news, we are pleased to share an online trophy awarded to us by Million Podcasts, an aggregate podcast site. PGAP sits in the top 50 of global ‘Sustainable Living’ podcasts, which is very encouraging. This is made possible by the PGAP community and word of mouth. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Alternatively, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform.

You can find out more about co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE

Time stamp -

Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss

00:00:00 to 00:05:28

Interview P1 with Louis De Jaeger
00:05:43 to 00:35:21

Intermission + 'Earthworn Bill' from 'Formidable Vegetable'
00:35:38 to 00:38:20

Interview P2 with Louis De Jaeger
00:38:20 to 00:53:42

Panel Discussion and Outro with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss
00:53:57 to 01:07:30

Special Guest: Louis De Jaeger.

Want to explore more of the Formidable Vegetable discography? The video for ‘No Such Thing as Waste’, the featured song for this episode, can be seen here. We also play brand new track 'Short Attention Span' from brand new album 'In Real Life' at the end of the interview. Bandcamp is the best place to go to hear all the back catalogue. Link here.

PGAP will be taking a – hopefully – short break before rejuvenating with Season 4 later this year. Just because we’re on pause doesn’t mean you have to be! Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us here to give us your feedback and especially what topics and guests you’d like to see for season 4.

In the meantime, if you enjoy the permaculture theme you may also like PGAP’s interview with David Holmgren (who Charlie lived with back in 2020) or Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family. Or you may be interested in the Tasmanian Perspectives series of interviews in season 2, including the quiet permaculture revolution of Tassie’s northern shores, or Charles Massy, regenerative farmer, from Season 3. Most of these episodes have Formidable Vegetable providing the music.

If you want to find out more about host Michael Bayliss, please head to my website here.

Otherwise, episode timestamp below and see you all in a few months! Until then, until then….

Timestamp!

0:00:00 - 0:08:13 Introduction with Michael Bayliss
0:08:13 - 0:10:59 'No Such Thing As Waste' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.
0:11:00 - 1:03:11 Interview with Charlie Mgee
1:03:11 - 1:04:05 'Short Attention Span' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.
1:04:06 - 1:06:31 Outro with Michael Bayliss

Special Guest: Charlie Mgee.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.