In addition to his leadership at ECO, Isaac has represented Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) at each international COP talk since 2012, playing a key role in shaping discussions on how the Global South and Global North can collaborate to address population related issues. A committed advocate for Degrowth and Ecological Sustainability, Isaac’s insights are a vital contribution to the post-growth movement.

Isaac speaking on a panel at a recent COP

As we are all aware, population sustainability remains a contentious issue. However, it is too often that the voices of experts from Global South communities remain unconsulted. In this episode, PGAP asks Isaac several pertinent questions relevant to the population debate, including:

"As a Ugandan citizen, how would you reassure the international community that it is a good thing that organisations within Australia and Uganda work together to address overpopulation in Uganda and other countries in the Global South?"

While Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) campaigns strongly on the domestic population issues facing Australia, less is known about the organisation’s commitment to the global stage. We hope this episode will be an inspiration on global partnerships in response to delivering on basic human rights such as access to family planning and reproductive healthcare.

Issac was interviwed for the SPA February 2025 Newsletter, which can be downloaded here.

Isaac Kabongo representing SPA at a COP exhibition stall, photographed with fellow exhibitors.

For more PGAP episodes that explore Global South perspectives on population, we recommend our interviews with Women for Conversation (Colombia) and Florence Blondel (who is also from Uganda).

Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Also, feel welcome to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast, subscribe to PGAP, or contact us with your feedback.

During this episode, we play the latest single from new West Australian band ‘Mobile Zebra’.

You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen here and here.

Special Guest: Isaac Kabongo.

You can find out more about Women for Conversation here. Please consider supporting their great work, by spreading the word or by making a donation. You can also read more W4C at the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter here. The full interview can be read at the SPA website here.

On this episode, we played the track ‘Aguita de Paramo” that Isabella recorded under her artist name ‘Isavibe’. You can follow Isavibe’s music at her Spotify account here.

This interview with Women for Conversation is part of a wider dialogue on mythbusting when it comes to family planning and reproductive healthcare, especially for the global south. PGAP has been an active part in this debate. In season two we spoke with Florence Blondel, Ugandan born journalist, feminist and sustainable population advocate. In season one we spoke with CHASE Africa who work with communities in Kenya (a QandA with founder Robin Witt can also be read on the SPA website).

(Artwork from Isabella under the artist name 'Isavibe).

Of course, this discussion is not just exclusive to the global south. In season two PGAP spoke with proud childfree women living in the USA and Australia. We spoke with Nandita Bajaj, executive director of Population Balance, whose organisation aim is to counter systemic pro-natalism. Last but certainly not least, we spoke with Prof. Anne Poelina, Chair of the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner. She brings to the table Indigenous wisdom and insight into the degrowth and population sustainability debates. The Martuwarra-Fitzroy river region is currently under much environmental stress with flash flooding in the Kimberley. Our thoughts are with all communities who live in this beautiful part of the world, human and non-human.

(Image courtesy of Isavibe).

PGAP is made by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). No strangers to tackling controversial issues, PGAP would like to take the opportunity to thank SPA for allowing us to take on the broader controversial issues of post-growth and degrowth with autonomy, including guests who may share different or opposing views on population. This is a good opportunity to remind that all perspectives and legacies of PGAP guests and their respective organisations are their own and may not always reflect those of PGAP and SPA.

During the interview, Isabella referred to the fantastic work of Kate Raeworth (of doughnut economics). A link to her Ted Talk can be watched here.

As always, we strongly encourage you to spread the post-growth message. Share this episode with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcasts. Contact us with your feedback, suggestions and guest recommendations.

Want to find out more about your hosts? You can find out more about Mark Allen, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here. You can find out more about Michael Bayliss at his website here.

Special Guest: Isabella Cortes Lara.

Meet Florence Blondel - Ugandan born journalist and all round game changer. I stumbled across her powerful article for Earth Overshoot day and couldn't help but to be incredibly moved. It had me thinking that there is so much debate in the global north around family planning based foreign aid for women and communities in the global south and yet the perspectives from women who live in the global south themselves are often lost in the noise. Florence is no less moving and inspiring in interview than she is in writing - cutting through the myths and misperceptions with stunning clarity, wisdom and through her direct experiences and anecdotes. You can find out more about Florence's great work here.

Meet Maxine Trump - director of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', virtually the first English language documentary to explore the decision whether or not to have children. Maxine points the lens at herself - literally and figuratively - as she juggles over the course of the feature length film the pros and cons of motherhood and opting, ultimately to be childfree. It has received rave reviews from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and having seen her film myself I can vouch for the unanimous praise! I chat with Maxine about her reflections following the making of the film as we anticipate the Australian premiere of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Australian cinemas in partnership with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign. A trailer for the film can be seen here and it will be released soon on Amazon Prime for those who are unable to make it to the Melbourne or Perth screenings.

Meet Tanya Williams - Brisbane based author of 'Childfree Happily Ever After'. Tanya shares with me her personal journey in her decision to be proudly childfree and her life mission to spread the word and normalise the choice to be childfree across the globe. She has released a new 'Childfree Magazine' this month - again, virtually a first of its kind. You can find out more about Tanya, her book and the new magazine here.

As mentioned, Sustainable Population Australia will be hosting private screenings of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Melbourne on the 26th of February and in Perth on the 27th of February in cooperation with Transition Town Guilford. According to Sandra Kanck, national president of SPA: "The aim of the campaign is to normalise the choice of having small or childfree families. As an environmental NGO, we advocate for smaller families as one solution towards reducing pressures on the Earth and support those who go down that path." SPA has produced a couple of short interview films here and here examining the issue with a range of people, including those who have decided to be childfree and those who have decided to have families. The screening of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', later this month, will be an excellent finale to our two year long project. A media release on the 'Stop at 2' campaign can be found here.

Interested in seeing Maxine's movie for yourself? Glad you asked! More information on the Melbourne screening can be found here. More information on the Perth screening can be found here. We are crossing our fingers for a third time lucky - we tried to screen the film twice last year and COVID lockdowns got the better of us! There has been some recently excitement in both Perth and Melbounre with hotel quarrantine scares so we are really hoping the dust will settle through to the end of February at least!

Given that many studies have demonstrated that having one less child is a more effective way to address personal emissions than a range of reductions in consumption or lifestyle choices, this is a necessary discussion to have for environmnetalists and the broader post-growth movement alike.

Time stamp:

00:00 - 07:45: Intro
07:46 - 46:35: Florence Blondel
46:36 - 01:04:42: Maxine Trump
01:04:43 - 01:20:53: Tanya Williams
01:20:54 - End: Outro

Special Guests: Florence Blondel, Maxine Trump, and Tanya Williams.