In June 2025, Michael and Mark participated in a community consultation weekend on the future development of North Albany. Michael later presented his observations at the Albany Community Environment Centre forum ahead of the City of Albany elections in September. His presentation explained to prospective councillors and fellow environmentalists why urban planning matters for both social wellbeing and ecological resilience. It also invited attendees to reflect upon the long‑term consequences of unchecked growth for the city’s future.

For this episode, Michael reads out this talk for posterity, which can also be read on the PGAP blog HERE. This prompts an open discussion with Mark around issues such as:

• Albany’s growth pains and the impact this has for future planning, housing security and the natural environment;

• How face to face community consultation, including Citizen Assemblies, can encourage cooperative debate and discussion, in contrast to the divisiveness which is so common in online or social media debates;

• How holistic approaches to debate can ensure that everyone can find common ground and navigate difference of opinion across many critical issues, including overpopulation;

• The importance of including post-growth thinking into our conversations, to encourage people to think about the bigger picture and act proactively as well as reactively;

• Finding the time to be in a space outside of language and narrative. An article, written by Michael in 2023, argues why the pursuit of growth makes this all the more difficult. Link HERE;

• Election fatigue in which it seems to be a case of the trees voting for the axe at federal, state and local levels, and:

• Finally, on a darkly humours note, we imagine what kind of apocalypse we face when world coffee stocks run out.

As we draw a close to season seven, we reflect on a very good year for PGAP. This has been our longest season to date, beginning as far back as November 2024, when we broadcasted the radio documentary ‘Rethinking Sustainability’. Since then, Season Seven has covered many topics across fifteen episodes, such as steady state economics, techno dystopia, regenerative agriculture and a panel discussion on Degrowth at the University of New South Wales. This year, PGAP was recognised by the site MillionPodcasts as being in the top ten global podcasts that covers overpopulation and in the top fifty podcasts on Sustainable Living. This is very encouraging news to hear as we take a break over the festive season and plan for season eight.

While we are on our break, we encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We are grateful to anyone who takes the time to review and rate us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast platform. We are also appreciative when people take the time to contact us directly with feedback and suggestions for future episode topics or guests. Many of our interviews this season came about from community suggestions or from prospective guests who emailed us. Reaching out is so important, not just for building connection but for helping us to broaden our range of episode topics and guests.

Last, but certainly not least, we extend our gratitude to Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), which has supported PGAP since its inception in July 2020. This season, we also bid farewell to John Coulter, a long-time leader of SPA and the wider post-growth movement in Australia who sadly passed away last year. We welcomed SPA’s new patron, Anne Poelina, and spoke with Isaac Kabongo, the Ugandan CEO of the Ecological Christian Organisation, who has represented SPA at COP events. You can learn more about SPA here.

It touches on some of the main themes that were discussed during a more in-depth conversation that we had with Larry for the full-length episode of Season Five, "Conversation with Noongar Menang Educator and Storyteller Larry Blight."

You may also be interested in another five minute video, "Meet Some of the Friends of Yakamia Forest Boodja" which was filmed on-site and also features Larry Blight along with many other active campaigners. This video was a success on social media and drew in support from the broader community in Albany, South-West Australia.

PGAP recognises NAIDOC Week (07th to 14th of July) which honours the traditions, achievements, and voices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. This episode along with the videos were made on Menang Noongar Boodja, on lands that were never ceded and to whose lands our current extractive society keeps plundering and 'developing' without meaningful consultation. All in the endless pursuit of growth.

Groups such as Friends of Yakamia Boodja are active in solidarity with the first custodians of the land in their campaign to protect what we can of remaining patches of bushland. Sadly all conservation groups will find themselves having to fight one battle after another until such time that we transition to a post-growth society that applies the wisdom of First Nation cultures.

We deeply respect elders past, present and emerging.

Special Guest: Larry Blight.

Oranje Tractor certainly punches above its weight. It was the winner of the Gourmet Traveller Wine, Australia's Best Cellar Door Awards 2019. Oranje Tractor Farm was the winner of ACCI's Great Southern Business Awards for Environment and Sustainability in 2019 and was a Case Study for Circular Economy WA in 2022. It has been endorsed by Charles Massy (previous PGAP guest) and visited by then Prince Charles – now king (and not YET a PGAP guest).

But how do you produce good quality wine, along with an impressive variety of fruits, nuts and vegetables, in a manner that improves soil integrity and sequesters more carbon than what is emitted? Murray Gomm shares what happens ‘behind the scenes’ of how they do it and why Oranje Tractor is capturing the interest and imagination of so many people. Murray also provides some insight into the wider regenerative movement and the agricultural zeitgeist that is slowly beginning to influence new ways of approaching farming in the Great Southern of Western Australia.

For the introduction and outro of this episode, Michael is joined by co-host Mark Allen as they pick each other’s brain on topics such as: regenerative agriculture and permaculture; progress on the Asbestos campaign (as discussed in the last episode); and the result of SPA’s 8 billion competition and the commentary from the mainstream press for 8 billion day, which was reached on the 15th of November.

Timestamp for the episode

Intro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:00:00 – 0:06:37
Oranje Tractor interview with Murray Gomm: 0:06:38 - 0:58:24
Outro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:58:25 - End

Liked this episode and the themes of regenerative agriculture? You will love our interviews with Charles Massy, Shane Simonsen, Artist as Family and David Holmgren.

Like PGAP? Rate and review us on Apple Podcast and share the podcast widely with your family friends and networks.

Have a question for us? Got any suggestions for future discussion topics or interview guests? Contact PGAP anytime on our contact page here.

Further links you may be interested in:

Independent Australia published an article co-written by Mark and Michael: “Working towards an asbestos-free future.” A more extensive version can also be read on the PGAP blog. Our various asbestos misadventures were discussed in the season 4 premiere of PGAP.

There is an excellent article, published by Carbon8, showcasing FarmHand wines, another excellent regenerative winery. Written by Elena Burger Guimaraes. Currently available to read on Facebook.

ABC has interviewed Oranje Tractor on several occasions. Examples include here and here.

SPA (who supports PGAP) announced the winners of the 8 billion writers' competition here.

You can find out more about Mark Allen's other work with Town Planning Rebellion here.

You can find out more about Michael Bayliss at his website here.

Special Guest: Murray Gomm.