Kate Booth is Associate Professor of Human Geography, and activist academic, in the School of Geography, Planning and Spatial Sciences at the University of Tasmania. Her teaching and research addresses socio-ecological inequity in the context of rapid and unprecedented global change, and she leads a ‘Critical Collapse Studies’ research program underpinned by her expertise on insurance in a changing climate. She also teaches urban and regional planning. You can read more about Kate here.

Just Collapse is an activist platform dedicated to socio-ecological justice in face of inevitable and irreversible global collapse. You can find out more about Just Collapse here. You can also read more about insurgent planning here or watch a video that Kate produced here.

An interview with Kate and Tristan Sykes is also available from Collapse Club on YouTube.

Kate is a regular contributor on the Town Planning Rebellion (TPR) Facebook Group, which is administered and moderated by your PGAP co-hosts, Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss.

Liked this episode and want to hear more? In 2021, PGAP recorded three episodes on the road in Tasmania, with many special guests, which can be listened to here, here and here. You may also like our episode on Retrosuburbia with David Holgren.

Help the world to degrow by helping PGAP to grow! Share this episode with your family and friends and rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us with your feedback and suggestions for future topics or guests.

PGAP is made possible through the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Kate Booth.

Our first guest Annabel Paulley (interviewed 00:08:19 to 00:37:09) is a coordinator and key member of the Albany based Friends of Yakamia Forest. The Friends of Yakamia have been working tirelessly to protect the titular rate payer land from being rezoned for housing and road development. The land is a fragment of the forest that once covered the northern suburbs of Albany and is home to a host of endemic and threatened plants, bird and animal species. You can find out more about Friends of Yakamia at their Facebook page here.

(Friends of Yakamia visiting state MP for Albany, Rebecca Stephens)

Our second guest Chris Poulton ( interviewed 00:37:23 to 01:09:16) runs Summer Creek Restaurant and Brewery with his family Bakers Hill, nestled in eastern side of the Perth Hills. The property and nearby Kep track have significant historical importance to Western Australia’s formative history, that will be undermined if the Eastlink highway project is passed. Find out more about Rethink Eastlink here. You may also wish to check out the great work from the Save Perth Hills Action Group.

(Chris Poulton)

Our third guest Dr Andrew St John (interviewed 01:09:32 to 01:23:54) is convenor of Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads. Toodyay lies on the transition between the Perth Hills and the Wheatbelt. The impact to lifestyle, legacy and the natural environment of the local scarp ecosystem is threatened by Main Roads WA and other developments (including mining and housing development).

(Andrew St John)

One major focus of this episode is to explore the interrelationship between the great work done at the grassroots by community action groups and the broader issue of wider system change being championed by many activists including degrowth advocates. The South-West of Western Australia is not the only region in the world in which brave citizens are defending their natural and cultural environments from the march of development, progress and concrete. Similar fights are occurring everywhere, globally, all the time. All three guests share a unique vision of their solutions to this worldwide predicament, although all are united with the view that there needs to be fundamental end to the current growth based system. Otherwise, it will be up to community groups to be perpetually putting out the spot fires.

Host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen, co-host and founder of Town Planning Rebellion, during the intro and outro. We gain his perspective on how TPR can work with local action groups to bring critical change to Australia’s broken urban planning sector. We also discuss how to have a nuanced debate on some of the thornier issues such as urban consolidation vs. urban sprawl, and visible (but seldom discussed) impacts of population growth.

You can find out more about host Michael Bayliss at his website here and more about Mark Allen at the Holistic Activism website. Please support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes with your networks. Do you have feedback or suggestions for future episodes? You can contact us here.

We'd like to leave you with some images of Chris Poulton's property at Bakers Hill, WA, followed by a timestamp of the episode.

Old winery established in 1884 by Edward Keane with 3x 136 year old Moreton bay fig trees on the right.

Looking up from the restaurant at the hill that would be turned in to a freeway (top 3rd of the picture).

White tailed Black Cockatoos spend over 3 months of the year feeding and socialising in area deemed for eastlink freeway. Community building and socialising areas are important for Black cockatoos and not something mainroads is acknowledging in their environmental assessment / report.

Episode time stamp

Introduction with Mark Allen: 00:00:00 to 00:08:04
Annabel Paully (Friends of Yakamia): 00:08:19 to 00:37:09
Chris Poulton (Summer Creek Brewery, Rethink Eastlink): 00:37:23 to 01:09:16
Andrew St John (Safe and Scenic Toodyay Roads): 01:09:32 to 01:23:54
Outro with Mark Allen (Town Planning Rebellion): 01:24:10 to 01:34:20

All expressed views and legacies - past and present - of PGAP guests are their own and do not necesarilly reflect the views and legacies of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, or Sustainable Population Podcast, who support this podcast.

Special Guests: Andrew St John, Annabel Paulley, and Chris Poulton.

This first episode of the season is the culmination of a personal journey for them both. For Michael it is an opportunity to share his lived experiences in the West Australia rental market (in what has been labelled as the asbestos capital of the world) - that is too broken to care about whether the basic health and safety needs of renters are being met. Mark who shared in some of those experiences, goes on to look at how it all fits into a wider discussion on the systemic changes that are so urgently required in our town planning and housing sectors.

These experiences have also been written down in the form of a blog: “A Year in Asbestosville: A Farcical Tale of Systemic Failure.” This can be read on the PGAP blog or at Michael’s author profile on Medium. You are spoiled for choice!

In addition to our personal journeys, we also discuss some Degrowth related current affairs. For example…

Did you know that November 15th is the date that our global population will reach 8 billion people. Yay! But what does 8 billion mean for the planet, the environment and for you? Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast, are inviting you to answer this very question in 100 words (or less!) for your chance to win a prize. A link can be found to the competition here. The competition is open to all Australian residents who are not currently members of SPA and it is open until November 11th.

Also, how could we not talk about Liz Truss on a program about Degrowth? Before her six weeks as PM was over, Truss bemoaned the supposed anti-growth coalition. So, a growing number of people thought that this was a great idea and started one up. Mark is currently in conversation with the coalition about how best to frame the population issue in a way that prevents it from becoming overly divisive. Want to find out more? You can visit their website here.

(image found through internet image search).

Finally, we would like to give a nod to Dr. Alex Baumann, who has just released a YouTube video, “The Land Issue | A Social Science Sustainability Breakthrough". Our season 3 interview with Alex, ‘A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth’ has become PGAP’s highest performing ever episode. Hopefully this will help bring the importance of public housing and its role in our transition to degrowth, further into public consciousness.

Perhaps we are making a difference because this year, PGAP nudged into the top 6% of global podcasts! With your help, we can get PGAP into the top 5% of listens, which we would like to think is where it belongs. You can do your bit by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcasts so that others may be inspired to give us a go. Let’s help to build a movement of movements 😊.

You can find out more about Mark, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here
You can find out more about Michael at his website here

During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

This is an interview in two parts. In part one of the interview, I caught up with Sue at Christie Walk to share her amazing life story, which includes a travelogue of rural Australia, Bangladesh and Cambodia. She shares her work campaigning for a sustainable and inclusive future for all people. Sue herself lives with an acquired disability, but this has not held her back from her tireless activism which includes hosting the incredible Adelaide Chronicles podcast.

In Part 2, I met up again with Sue at Christie Walk and was delighted to be joined by Mark Allen from Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism. Using Christie Walk as a central focus, the conversation then broadens into a discussion at to why alternative housing models are a critical part of the transition toward a post-growth world. Further, how the developer and investor infiltrated housing sector makes this crucial change so difficult. Mark Allen is a return guest to PGAP, having been a special guest in last year’s Retrosuburbia episode with David Holmgren. Mark also provides the music for this episode, via the track ‘Lost and Found Hours’ from his music project ‘Counting Backwards.’

This was the first time PGAP has attempted a three way interview on location and we were very fortunate to take advantage of Sue’s amazing portable 360 degree recording device. Sue and I ebb in an out of swapping ‘interviewer’ and ‘interviewee’ roles but I think we just about pull it off in a post-modern way. It is not every day you get to describe the aims of your podcast on your own show but we live in fascinating times.

This episode was recorded with gratitude on unceded Kaurna land and PGAP pays respect to elders past, present and emerging.

Special Guests: Mark Allen and Sue Gilbey.

But what IS Retrosuburbia? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!

David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book. This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!

In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role.

Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women.

If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing. It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'.

The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable'. Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp.

Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.

Anitra Nelson is an author, scholar and activist. She is passionate about the degrowth movement in addition to alternatives in restructuring the ways in which we live and relate to each other. Particularly, co-housing, shared living and localised economies and governance.

During this interview, we discuss two important books of wisdom that Anitra has delivered to the world. Anitra was just launching “Small Is Necessary: Shared Living on a Shared Planet” when we first met in early 2018.

At the time of this episode’s broadcast, Anitra has released “Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide” – a book that she has co-written with Vincent Liegey and has published through Pluto Press. Both excellent books are covered in the interview.

In addition, Anitra provides a very detailed and eloquent description of what life might look like in a degrowth world where localised governance and shared community living is the norm and not the exception.

Following the interview, I discuss some of my experiences and reflections on community shared living. I discuss the Retrosuburbia movement, linked here to find out more.
There are so many positives to shared living and we need to see more of this if we are to pull the breaks on bad urban planning outcomes that are shaping our cities and towns for the worse. However, shared living comes with many challenges that perhaps not all of us are ready or willing to jump into just yet.

Just as important (in my opinion) is to unite on a broader scale reform of the town planning system, so that housing can be built around the many different needs of the diverse people who live in our towns and cities. Not just for the growthist and profit driven mentality of property developers. As such, it is worth checking out movements that are challenging the ‘big picture’ such as Town Planning Rebellion.

Another pithy episode with much (locally grown?) food for thought!

Special Guest: Anitra Nelson.