(Rob Dietz).

Rob is the Programs Director of Post Carbon Institute (PCI). A brilliant public speaker and story teller, Rob talks us through the journey of Crazy Town Podcast, which he co-hosts with colleagues Asher Miller and Jason Bradford. He also discusses the other initiatives and campaigns run by PCI, in addition to his unique vision of a Post-Growth future.

(Crazy Town's Logo).

We asked Rob to share two of his favourite Crazy Town Podcast Episodes that are linked below. We do warn you, that once you start listening to Crazy Town, you might not be able to stop!

• Episode 34. Fear of Death and Climate Denial, or… the Story of Wolverine and the Screaming Mole of Doom

• Episode 60. Chillin' and Killin': How Air Conditioning Has Altered Human Behavior and the Environment

Rob would also like us to share PCI’s report: “Welcome to the Great Unraveling: Navigating the Polycrisis of Environmental and Social Breakdown.” It is quality reading and we are pleased that it is making ripples.

The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’ from host Michael Bayliss’ band ‘Shock Octopus.’ First released in 2011, its apocalyptic tale – of a world that has become so impacted that even the billionaires who created the mess in the first place have no safe place to hide – is becoming all the more prophetic a decade later. Michael and co-host Mark have had our music recently played on the Freedom of Species radio show, here and here respectively.

(The iconic cover of the 'Safe Room' single).

We are also excited by the fact that Rob presented at an online Degrowth conference run by New Economy Network Australia (NENA). PGAP has interviewed NENA’s convenor Michelle Maloney twice. The video of Rob’s talk can be watched here.

Your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are pleased to be back for season five of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We hope you like the cosmetic changes of this episode (graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea Designs with photos from Photographica). We are looking forward to another season of quality guests and topics.

We have not been idle during our break. You may, for example wish to have a gander at two of our recent published articles, including:

• “Economic reform vital to solving housing crisis” - Mark Allen for Independent Australia

• “POPULATION GROWTH AND WEALTH INEQUALITY ARE MORE ENTWINED THAN WE THOUGHT: HERE’S WHY” – Michael Bayliss for Population Media Center blog.

We hit our record monthly listens twice in season four and with your word of mouth we can extend our outreach even further for season five. Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple podcast or your favourite platform. Don’t hesitate to contact us anytime with your feedback, thoughts or suggestions.

Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the support of Sustainable Population Australia. Any opinions, views and legacies past and present from our guests are theirs only and may not always reflect that of PGAP or SPA.

Episode Timestamp:

0:00:00 to 0:09:31 - Interview sound bye and introduction with Mark Allen
0:09:31 to 0:56:31 - Interview with Rob Dietz, hosted by Michael Bayliss
0:56:32 to 0:59:41 - Music, ‘Safe Room’ by ‘Shock Octopus’.
0:59:42 to 1:05:02 – Outro with Mark Allen

Special Guest: Rob Dietz.

It is not a secret to anyone now that Australia is going through a housing emergency. With Australia one of the most unaffordable countries in the world and with many of us in severe housing stress, this reality is very tangible. As housing stress is reaching its peak, our federal government is committing to one of the largest population growth policies in recent decades. The ‘official’ stance is that the housing crisis is a supply based issue – just keep building more! There has been very little written on the ‘demand’ side of the housing equation. Michael found himself one of the few who were brave or foolhardy enough to tackle this issue alongside co-author Dr. Jane O’Sullivan, with whom Sustainable Population Australia commissioned to write the report ‘The Housing Crisis is a Population Growth Crisis.’ For this episode, Mark interviews Michael on the story behind the report and some of its key findings.

(Boomer and the Doomer artwork by Mathisha Wahikala, Mick Thompson and Mark Allen).

The housing emergency is just another in long line of emergencies – take your pick! Climate change, boiling oceans, ecological collapse, resource depletion and other fun things. It can be hard to maintain a poker face through this incessant din of human induced calamities, let alone find time to laugh. Michael interviews Mark’s recent experiences in combining political satire with stand- up comedy in his debut show at the Adelaide fringe with comedian Eric Tinker. Combined, they performed the duo show ‘The Boomer and The Doomer’ across three sold out nights in March. We muse on bringing humour into Degrowth conversations, which has been one of PGAP’s key objectives since day one. Eric Tinker's 'MC Boomer rap' can be viewed here on YouTube.

(Ice cover artwork by Robert Smith and Mark Allen).

We also take time in the episode to play a some choice tracks, 'Ice' and 'A Deer Caught In The Highlights' from Mark and Michael's respective music projects, 'Counting Backwards' and 'Shock Octopus'.

PGAP will soon be winding down for a short break between our fourth and fifth seasons. This is a perfect time to contact PGAP to let us know your feedback and what themes or guests you would like us to explore next time around. Our recent upswing in downloads continues - be part of this movement! Share this and other episodes to your family, friends and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite platform.

A big thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this podcast. You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen at their websites.

Episode time stamp:

0:00:00 - 0:03:09 Introduction
0:03:00 - 0:05:07 'Ice' by Counting Backwards
0:05:08 - 0:38:05 Housing Crisis? What Housing Crisis!
0:38:06 - 0:42:10 'A Deer Caught In The Headlights' by Shock Octopus
0:42:11 - End The Boomer and the Doomer + Outro

Mark referred to several articles during this show. These include:
"Threat to Albanese Government" - Crispin Hull
"Millions living on city fringes at higher risk of climate disasters as federal government warned of 'national crisis" - ABC
"There is a perfect storm brewing for the housing market and it could make buying your own home a pipedream" - ABC

Mark's article for Independent Australia, "Why the housing crisis is here to stay" can now be read here. A second article, "Economic reform vital to solving housing crisis", has also been published by IA.

Dr. Shane Simonsen operates a ‘Zero Input Agriculture’ farm in the highlands of South-East Queensland. What does zero input mean and does it work? Shane shares with PGAP how a zero input system works, in addition to weaving his vast knowledge and unique insights into a very pithy conversation with PGAP host Michael Bayliss.

Shane regularly posts on his farm and his worldly observation on his website, Zero Input Agriculture, which we encourage you to explore. Shane has also been a guest on podcasts such as Abundant Edge.

Shane and I are mutual contacts of Michel Stasse and Doon Wyborn, both doing great things in permaculture and collapse awareness. Both have also been previous guests on PGAP. You can listen to Doon’s interview here and Michel here.

Do you enjoy this episode? Then please Support PGAP. Subscribe here. Contact us here. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast.

Last episode I interviewed regenerative farming icon Charles Massy to promote the Fenner conference ‘Making Australian Agriculture Sustainable.’ The Fenner conference proved to be fantastic with its array of fantastic speakers and its juggling of the precariousness of Australia’s agricultural predicaments while also offering many hopeful solutions. I certainly learnt a lot more about dung beetles! The conference was supported and sponsored by Sustainable Population Australia, who also support this podcast. Good on them!

These are a couple of online screenshots from the first day of the conference. I am sure higher quality photos, taken on ground, will be available soon!

The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’, the first recorded single from my band ‘Shock Octopus’ back in 2011. Back then, songs about collapse were still seen as somewhat niche in the WA music scene (and in mainstream society more broadly). These days, collapse is so obviously a thing that even the Murdoch Press are talking about it! What can I say, I was there first. You can find out more about ‘Safe Room’ at the Shock Octopus Bandcamp page here (you can even support the artist and buy a copy – hint).

Would you like to find out more about PGAP’s host, Michael Bayliss? You can find out more at my website here.

Disclaimer: All opinions from PGAP’s guests are theirs alone, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or position held by PGAP, Michael Bayliss, or Sustainable Population Australia. This includes all current and previous research, work, advocacy or opinions attributable to our interviewees.

Special Guest: Dr. Shane Simonsen.

During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

This special travelogue episode of PGAP was recorded all the way back in January 2021. My car and I had left Melbourne after the second lockdown and we were enjoying the coastline of NSW when COVID started creeping into Sydney and Brisbane again. Originally I intended to only go as far north as Coffs Harbour, but as I couldn’t get back to Victoria, I received an invitation to stay for a week or so at in intentional community inland of the Northern Rivers, right on the border of Queensland and right near a town called ‘Woodenbong.’ I was intrigued and took up the offer.

At Bindarrabi, I joined the residents at house meetings, communal dinners, gardening bees, path and wall building, and a lot of swimming during the warm days at the amazing water holes. Every single one of the amazing residents at Bindarrabi were incredibly gracious and made me feel right at home and part of a buzzing community. Toward the end of my stay, Doone and I impulsively agreed to record an interview, in a tin caravan come office during a heavy sub-tropical summer rainfall. I feel that this gives the interview a sense of place an intimacy.

I’m not sure why I held onto this interview for so long, however the broadcast of this episode falls shortly after the sobering news of the new report by the IPCC. This is accidentally great timing, as Doone’s interview starts off with a tour of Bindarrabi before going deeper into a reflection of overshoot, collapse and environmental tipping points. Doon does not shy away from sharing his emotions and concerns as the interview progresses and indeed I feel compelled to give a slight disclaimer to be emotionally prepared before listening to this episode.

The choice of music this episode is ‘No Easy Way Down’ from my own band ‘Shock Octopus.’ . Given the sobering news of the IPCC report and some of the discussions in this interview, I thought it would be quite thematically consistent to play a song that is about climate change from the perspective of a polar bear. ‘No Easy Way Down’ was released as a fundraiser single last year to raise funds for Extinction Rebellion.

Following the episode, want to explore some more? Let these links be thine guide!

The sixth assessment report of The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) can be read in full here. Given the future of existence depends in part on following these recommendations, I do agree taking the time to read in full. Otherwise, I like the summary from The Guardian here.

The homepage for the Bindarrabi community can be found here. They are looking for new additions to their community if you’re feeling the call.

Recently I spoke at Adelaide based Economic Reform Australia. I strongly recommend checking them out, they have a great newsletter full of economic critique articles.

I was interviewed on Radio Adelaide Songcatcher and Mixtape programs to talks about the stories behind the songs with my decade long band Shock Octopus. If you’re tired of hearing me ramble about post-growth and would rather I ramble about another topic, these links are for you.

A huge thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for making the podcast possible.

Special Guest: Doone Wyborn.

Leith van Onselen writes relentlessly as The Unconventional Economist at the blog site MacroBusiness, one of the more successful fringe media sites in Australia (and by 'fringe' we mean 'not owned by Murdoch and yet still surviving').

Speaking of mainstream media, Leith is so far the only guest (or host) ever to have appeared on The Bolt Report and The Today Show. Now before we get too alarmed, I argue that this is not because Leith is a covert neoliberal but rather his communication style is such that his unconventional economics can appeal to a broad mainstream audience.

During the interview we find out why Leith is, indeed, an 'unconventional' economist and conclude that, indeed, this is because he is at heart just like to rest of us. He wants to see an end to deregulated neoliberal growth that benefits the few at the expense of the many. Instead, he would like to see more leisure, community, well-being, lower consumption and more considered frugality.

Leith would also like to see an end to Australia's high rate of population growth that have been boosted through higher levels of economic migration over the last two decades which has seen his home city of Melbourne climb from 3.5 to over 5 million in under 20 years. This is an ‘unconventional’ position that tends to be unpopular with both big business and the left, however we love to put population under the microscope on PGAP, so we explore this issue further with Leith.

Leith informs us on the fiscal policy that the government should take in the difficult decade of recession that lies ahead (as it turned out in the October 06 budget, the government didn't really follow Leith's advice). I begin the episode by sharing my take on the budget and end the episode by giving my take on a recent article that aims some criticism at Degrowth advocates (from an author to which I was not expecting this from).

It comes down to the fact that there is a bit of an argument in economics land: IS it possible to have GDP growth without physical growth that requires resource extraction? Or in other words, is it possible to decouple economic growth from environmental destruction? What are your thoughts? Can we decouple our way out of our problems or is this just wishful thinking? Please let me know your thoughts by clicking the contact tab on this website and let me know if you would like your opinion broadcast on the next episode.

For those who like links:

Leith lead a discussion paper for Sustainable Population Australia titled:** Population growth and Infrastructure in Australia: the catch-up illusion** the link can be found here

The song of choice today was from my own band 'Shock Octopus’ entitled 'In A Box'. Thematically it brings an old Malvina Reynold song into the apartment/compartment world of the 21st Century. Musically it is Talking Heads meets rock/rap, but hopefully better than that sounds. Link here. an exerpt of the song ended up at the 'Theme' to the SPA crowdfunded series 'Tough Crowd'.

Special Guest: Leith van Onselen.

The 2020s is the decade of consequence from centuries of anthropocentrism. The ‘Anthropocene’ has seen the numbers of human and ‘livestock’ animals balloon at the expense of every single other ‘wild’ species on the planet. Nature is biting back. In Australia, after reeling from the devastating impact of the bushfires, Melbourne has been plunged into six weeks (at least) of stage 4 lockdown. We are also looking towards a future of contraction and recession. Our politicians and business ‘leaders’ are only too keen to return to business as usual - as soon as possible. Dr Michelle Maloney has other ideas…

Michelle is the co-founder of Australian Earth Laws Alliance (AELA) and director of the New Economy Network Australia (NENA). For the past decade, Michelle has dedicated her life to bringing people and community together to revision a better world in which humans live, work and play in a way that regenerates the environment instead of taking away from it. From anthropocentricism to ecocentrism, if you please.

Michelle shares with host Michael Bayliss the excellent and essential work being done by the volunteer run AELA and NENA, bringing the realms of law and economics back into nature where it belongs. She describes what kind of world we might live in if we can change out mind sets by putting our beautiful local ecosystems back into forefront.

Michael also plays ‘Life on a Pier’ from his own band ‘Shock Octopus’. The track is an epic song about climate grief, an orchestrated eulogy for these difficult but fascinating times. The song is currently enjoying a month of national wide promotion, so we thought its inclusion here is timely!

We hope you enjoy the 04th episode of PGAP.

Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.