The aftermath of the US election has left many of us in a state of shock. Voters were faced with a stark choice between more growth-based neoliberalism or alt right extremism, choosing the latter. It was a great day for billionaires either way. As Australia looks to face a very similar choice in mid-2025, it is clear that activists must take stock, recalibrate and work together effectively to advocate for a third alternative that celebrates people and planet. PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss discuss their responses to the election and their recent engagements toward a Degrowth future.

In this episode, Michael shares the speech that he gave on Degrowth at the Torbay Festival, Western Australia in late October – just before the election. A quote from the talk:

“What can we do as Davids against the Goliaths of psychopathic multinational corporations and the politicians who serve time as their apologists for a few years in the promise of a cushy job in the gas industry? This is where I invite you to think about where from here and let’s have the conversation.”

This is a conversation that needs to happen with greater urgency as humanity lurches towards an increasingly dark future.

A transcript of Michael’s talk can be read on the PGAP BLOG.

Mark shares his most recent posting on Holistic Activism following the US election. As Mark explains, “this message isn’t a call for optimism or hope…instead, it’s a call to hold space and to serve both human and non-human futures, with an awareness of our profound interconnectedness.”

The post may be read at the Holistic Activism website HERE. You can be part of the Holistic Activism movement today by joining the HA FACEBOOK GROUP.

PGAP is also proud to be the first to play Mark’s new song ‘Ballad of Yakamia’ performed by his occasional and ongoing musical project ‘Counting Backwards.’ You can download or purchase the song from BANDCAMP.

One take away from the US election is that podcasts have now overtaken mainstream media as public informers. However, did you know that the top 10 performing podcasts tend to lean more towards right wing populism? It is time that podcasts that offer genuine solutions – planned degrowth, steady state economics, wellbeing societies, and stabilising populations start to make a bigger splash in the mainstream media.

We have been very happy with the performance of PGAP’ Season Seven opener, “Rethinking Sustainability” which is looking to break PGAP download records. We invite you to help us to build this momentum. Please SUBSCRIBE and share PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can rate and review us on APPLE PODCAST. CONTACT US with your feedback and recommendations for future episode.

This episode is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. SPA is the only population organisation in the world, that has demonstrated unequivocal support from the broader public, for a sensible and rational population policy. With 17,500 signatures to their position statement, SPA has demonstrated that the issue doesn’t have to be ugly or divisive to win popular support (someone should have told the Republicans). SPA has also released a sobering report on Australia’s water security: “Big thirsty Australia: how population growth threatens our water security and sustainability”.

A couple more links:

This blog piece from CASSE, A Steady Stater’s Response to the Harris-Trump Debate is good for a 'Degrowth' perspective on the Democract/Republic dichotomy.

This video from Resilience.Org, A Dozen Years of Economic Thumb Twiddling, also resonates with us.

From George Monbiot: Trump has pledged to wage war on planet Earth – and it will take a progressive revolution to stop him. "Voters have never been swayed by ‘rational debate’. Only a genuine change in the way we do politics can prevent the march of the right". Indeed.

It is not a secret to anyone now that Australia is going through a housing emergency. With Australia one of the most unaffordable countries in the world and with many of us in severe housing stress, this reality is very tangible. As housing stress is reaching its peak, our federal government is committing to one of the largest population growth policies in recent decades. The ‘official’ stance is that the housing crisis is a supply based issue – just keep building more! There has been very little written on the ‘demand’ side of the housing equation. Michael found himself one of the few who were brave or foolhardy enough to tackle this issue alongside co-author Dr. Jane O’Sullivan, with whom Sustainable Population Australia commissioned to write the report ‘The Housing Crisis is a Population Growth Crisis.’ For this episode, Mark interviews Michael on the story behind the report and some of its key findings.

(Boomer and the Doomer artwork by Mathisha Wahikala, Mick Thompson and Mark Allen).

The housing emergency is just another in long line of emergencies – take your pick! Climate change, boiling oceans, ecological collapse, resource depletion and other fun things. It can be hard to maintain a poker face through this incessant din of human induced calamities, let alone find time to laugh. Michael interviews Mark’s recent experiences in combining political satire with stand- up comedy in his debut show at the Adelaide fringe with comedian Eric Tinker. Combined, they performed the duo show ‘The Boomer and The Doomer’ across three sold out nights in March. We muse on bringing humour into Degrowth conversations, which has been one of PGAP’s key objectives since day one. Eric Tinker's 'MC Boomer rap' can be viewed here on YouTube.

(Ice cover artwork by Robert Smith and Mark Allen).

We also take time in the episode to play a some choice tracks, 'Ice' and 'A Deer Caught In The Highlights' from Mark and Michael's respective music projects, 'Counting Backwards' and 'Shock Octopus'.

PGAP will soon be winding down for a short break between our fourth and fifth seasons. This is a perfect time to contact PGAP to let us know your feedback and what themes or guests you would like us to explore next time around. Our recent upswing in downloads continues - be part of this movement! Share this and other episodes to your family, friends and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or your favourite platform.

A big thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this podcast. You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen at their websites.

Episode time stamp:

0:00:00 - 0:03:09 Introduction
0:03:00 - 0:05:07 'Ice' by Counting Backwards
0:05:08 - 0:38:05 Housing Crisis? What Housing Crisis!
0:38:06 - 0:42:10 'A Deer Caught In The Headlights' by Shock Octopus
0:42:11 - End The Boomer and the Doomer + Outro

Mark referred to several articles during this show. These include:
"Threat to Albanese Government" - Crispin Hull
"Millions living on city fringes at higher risk of climate disasters as federal government warned of 'national crisis" - ABC
"There is a perfect storm brewing for the housing market and it could make buying your own home a pipedream" - ABC

Mark's article for Independent Australia, "Why the housing crisis is here to stay" can now be read here. A second article, "Economic reform vital to solving housing crisis", has also been published by IA.

One of the keynote speakers, Charles Massy, has become a household name in regenerative farming. He has a bestselling book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler: A New Agriculture’ and has been the subject of an Australian Story episode. PGAP is delighted to have Charles join us to discuss regenerative agriculture in depth and tell us more about the upcoming Fenner conference.

(a sample of the many speakers at the 2022 Feneer conference)

To find out more or to register for the 2022 Fenner conference ‘Making Agriculture Sustainable’ click here.

The Australian Story episode of Charles Massy can be found here. To find out more about his book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler,’ start here

Rod Taylor, one of the Fenner organisers, has also recently published a book ‘ Ten Journeys on A Fragile Planet.’ Agriculture and care for country are both reoccurring themes in this book. You can find out more here.

This year’s Fenner conference is made possible by the generous support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). SPA are also the main supporters of PGAP. You can read more on their recent discussion paper of ‘Population and Climate Change’ here. If population policy in Australia is a concern for you in the lead up to the election, SPA offers come handy hints on making a difference here. SPA relies on grass roots donations, supporters and members to ensure that their important message has cut through in a generally unforgiving media environment. To support SPA, find out more here.

It has been 50 years since that wonderful but intimating book ‘Limits to Growth’ was published in 1972. It is as relevant as ever (especially as the worst case projections in the book are all playing out on cue). A great article was recently written on the anniversary which can be read here.

Got feedback? Post-Growth ideas? Or would you like to be a guest on PGAP or contribute your music? Then please say hello on our contact page here. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. Share PGAP far and wide – with your kind support PGAP is becoming increasingly known and popular Thank you!

The music of choice for this episode is 'Blame It On The Sun' by 'Counting Backwards'. A link to their Bandcamp page can be found here.

Want to find out a little more about PGAP’s host? Michael’s website can be visited here.

Special Guest: Charles Massy.

During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

You may remember Derrick Jensen from such best-selling books as Endgame and The Culture of Make Believe. Or you may be aware of him as the co-founder of Deep Green Resistance radical environmental group. Derrick is hailed as the philosopher poet of the ecological movement. He pulls no punches when it comes to being a champion of the natural world, pointing the finger of scrutiny at the modern human capitalist experiment and reminding us that yes, limits to growth are DEFINITELY real. In other words, he fits in just perfectly with Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP).

I can't say we keep things shallow during the interview. Derrick goes down the rabbit hole with me as he dissects capitalism, the psychology that creates an expansionist, destructive mind-set, the trauma that is inflicted on both human and human animals as a result of a civilization built around competition and domination and, not least, the role that (non patriarchal/monotheist) spirituality plays in reconnecting us back into the awe and one-ness with nature. Although the interview is slightly longer than some other episodes, I feel I barely brushed the surface with Derrick and can't wait to have him back for 'round two pithy conversation’ soon!

Before the interview host Michael Bayliss provides a ruefully amusing anecdote of trying to explain Earth Overshoot Day to the mainstream news media last year. I honestly thought I was buttering up our predicament for the interviewers in the best way that I could, but they still felt I was being too pessimistic when I tried to explain that the work to be done involved more than just recycling. I had almost forgotten the cognitive blind spot that is mainstream news!

To cap it off, we play the brand new track ‘Ice’ from 'Counting Backwards' . It is a track about modern life malaise in the suburbs. Take this lyric below which links in nicely to some of the conversation had with Derrick Jensen:

"People don’t know how to be happy in the sprawl. It's a monochrome world she says. Flanked by urban malls."

Stick around for episode six when I interview Robert Wanalo from Post Growth Institute. In the meantime, you may be interested in the Earth Overshoot Day media release freshly released by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).

Special Guest: Derrick Jensen.