This is the second year that the hosts of PGAP have been invited by the unit lecturer, Dr Paul M. Pulé, to present on Degrowth as part of the course. In 2025, Michael was joined by Mark Allen, who facilitated a Holistic Activism workshop and guided meditation.

The full summary of this unit can be read at the bottom of the show notes, after the timestamp.

On both occasions, the presentations have generated very positive feedback and high levels of engagement from the class. It has been particularly encouraging to see students from all corners of the globe actively participating in discussions about why Degrowth is so critical for sustainability and what post-growth futures might be possible.

Paul and Michael with some of the students of the 'Global Futures and Just Transformations' class of 2026

This episode is divided into two parts. First, we hear Michael Bayliss’s presentation, with additional contributions from Paul Pulé. Second, we hear the Q&A and discussion with the class. This section has been edited to protect the privacy of class participants and therefore focuses mainly on the responses from Paul and Michael. There is also some additional commentary from Mark and Michael between these recordings. More information on the timestamp below.

This commentary includes a summary of some of the very positive feedback that PGAP has received from our listeners. To all our listeners, thank you so much for your continued support. We encourage you to contact us via the PGAP contact form to share your experiences with Solastalgia, or to provide feedback and recommendations for future topics and guests.

Doughnut Economics and the Circular Economy

During the presentation, Michael discussed both Doughnut Economics and the Circular Economy. Questions have subsequently been raised about how best to distinguish between these two approaches, since both use circular models.

Our distinction is that the Circular Economy does not necessarily consider the size of the circle. In theory, it is possible to have a growing economy with zero waste, while the circle itself continues to become larger. Doughnut Economics, by contrast, recognises that ‘size matters’: if the economic circle is too small, our needs are not adequately met; if it is too large, we exceed the ecological ceiling and enter overshoot.

This image produced with the assistance of AI

Population

There was also some thoughtful discussion in the second part of the episode around the issue of population. If you are interested in exploring PGAP’s perspective on this issue in greater depth, we recommend our blog article, “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue”.

Accompanying blog

We have also written a blog to accompany this episode, which you can READ HERE. The blog provides access to all of the slides Michael used during his presentation, giving you the option of following along with the presentation visually as you listen to the episode.

Timestamp:

Start - 00:02:45 Introduction with Mark Allen

0:03:00 - 0:48:12 Guest Presentation 'Degrowth, Marginality & Decoloniality' from Michael Bayliss

0:48:27 - 0:54:23 Intermission with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss

0:54:38 - End Q&A with Michael Bayliss, Paul Pule and class of Global Futures and Just Transformation

Course Summary

Unit: Global Futures and Just Transformations at Curtin University
Lecturer: Dr. Paul M. Pule

This unit adopts a broad social sciences approach to understanding different visions of just futures through the lens of different worldviews. It allows students to reflect on the often-implicit assumptions that come with their own value systems when evaluating inequalities, resilience, development pathways, and intersecting crises as well as clashing visions for and trajectories to equitable, responsible, and sustainable futures. The unit provides students with the tools to navigate the unprecedented emergencies, comprehend the scale, speed, and extent of the societal transformations needed, and bring into being more equitable futures as part of a postcolonial world, locally and globally, across a variety of contexts. Students will learn how to address difficult ethical questions such as what is fair and for whom, and how to nourish responsibility, care, and hope, across difference.

PGAP is produced with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia

Special Guest: Dr. Paul M. Pulé.

The Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program is one working example of how a ‘circular economy model’ would work. Darren however cautions that circular economy models are limited in light of the loss in energy and resources that are implicit with recycling. We at PGAP argue that this is all the more reason why a circular based economy must go hand in hand with a post-growth economic system. Finally, Darren shares his personal vision for a possible post-growth future and what it might look like.

Co-host Michael Bayliss is joined by Mark Allen for the introduction and outro for this episode, where they reflect on this great initiative from Smart Energy Council. They also discuss the imperative for a planned degrowth transition in a world that is drowning under ever growing piles of aggregate consumer waste. Mark and Michael also discuss some recent developments and current affairs as ‘post-growth’ and ‘collapse’ enters mainstream discourse.

Did you enjoy this episode? Feel free to show your appreciation by rating and review PGAP on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform. Or write to us through our contact form with your feedback and any ideas you might have for future episodes. We also appreciate guest recommendations! Please feel free to share this and other episodes of PGAP within your networks. We rely exclusively on word of mouth.

PGAP is made possible with the support of Sustainable Population Australia. Please check out SPA on their website and consider signing their position statement or even signing-up as a supporter or member.

Want to explorer deeper into the themes raises by this episode? Here are some links:

The following webinars explore the Smart Energy Council ‘Solar PV Recycling and Products Stewardship Program’ in detail:

• Solar Recycling & Material End Markets – Stewardship Webinar I Smart Energy Council
  
  slides here

• Webinar Renewable Sector Stewardship Enablers
  slides here

• Solar Panel Reuse I Stewardship Webinar Series - Smart Energy Council
  slides here

The episode refers to two past episodes of PGAP. These include: “Save our Soils: Regenerative Farming with Louis De Jaeger” and; “Working Toward a Circular Economy Future in Australia with Phil Jones”.

One of our previous guests, Kate Booth from Just Collapse, was a panellist in the ABC debate: “We’re F'ed! It’s too late to avoid civilisational collapse." Kate Booth was special guest on the PGAP episode “Planning for a Just Collapse”.

You can find more about the work of PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE.

The opinions of PGAP guests, including any legacies past or present, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Darren Johannesen .

Across the next two episodes of PGAP, we will be showcasing the good work from CASSE NSW Inc., who are advocating for the steady state economy in Australia.

For this episode, we interview Phil Jones, Treasurer and Secretary, as he shares with us the progress of government reports and inquiries into the Circular Economy. Furthermore, why it is crucial that we encourage the government to take serious action in implementing the circular economy, rather than letting their reports gather dust in Canberra.

We discuss two reports in particular:

• The Circular Economy Ministerial Advisory Group, established in 2023, and:
• The Productivity Commission “Opportunities in the Circular Economy” interim report

The circular economy is defined by Wikipepdia as: “a model of resource production and consumption in any economy that involves sharing, leasing, reusing, repairing, refurbishing, and recycling existing materials and products for as long as possible.”

Phil is positive with the potential for the rollout of the circular economy in Australia, especially in its capacity to catalyse existing initiatives such as recycling programs, repair cafes, second hand exchange initiatives, etc. However, he cautions that the circular economy is alone insufficient in achieving true sustainability unless it is coupled with the Steady State Economy. That is, "an economy made up of a constant stock of physical wealth (capital) and a constant population size, which does grow over the course of time".

The episode concludes with a call to action to get some real and action in response to these reports. A good place to start is by signing the CASSE NSW INC petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy.

Did you like this episode and want to explore further?

You may be interested in PGAP’s first ever episode with Steady State ACT, or with CASSE’s international director Brian Czech. We also discussed the New Economy Network Australia on the episode, so you may be interested in PGAP’s coverage of the 2023 NENA conference (sadly, I didn’t get around to recording Phil’s excellent talk).

You can find out more about Phil and CASSE NSW in the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter November 2024. Speaking of SPA, who proudly support PGAP, please consider signing their position statement, calling for an end to population growth in Australia.

You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions.

All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Phil Jones.